Liquid and waving....what the deal? Liquid vs Waving Debate**

[GlitchWB]

Hey guys...so I have been doing liquid for a little bit and recently I have got more into waving. Or rather what I think is waving. Where does the line between what is waving and what is liquid belong? I watched some footage of a guy named Funktion and he is doing waves but it seems like liquid is mixed in. Does he call this waving? Or is it liquid? Is liquid just a new set of concepts within the waving tree?

The more I see some people just go all out on waving I think to myself how sick it would be to fully incorporate liquid and waving together. Where it all happens seemlessly and the waves flow into other waves.

Any thoughts from any of you experienced heads here on the board?

[bboyPROstiTUTBSX]

you go to bboy.org?

search (use the search tool) for liquid and waving in the funk styles part of the forum... we had a debate about it there

[TETRIS]

Waving + Liquid + Digits = Dopeness

[HgItch]

Waving + Liquid + Digits = Dopeness

:D

[Dad]

Hey guys...so I have been doing liquid for a little bit and recently I have got more into waving. Or rather what I think is waving. Where does the line between what is waving and what is liquid belong? I watched some footage of a guy named Funktion and he is doing waves but it seems like liquid is mixed in. Does he call this waving? Or is it liquid? Is liquid just a new set of concepts within the waving tree?

The more I see some people just go all out on waving I think to myself how sick it would be to fully incorporate liquid and waving together. Where it all happens seemlessly and the waves flow into other waves.

Any thoughts from any of you experienced heads here on the board?

Funktion started out doing liquid before he did popping if I remember correctly, but I could be wrong. He can mix the styles if he wants, it's cool.

Liquid originated in raves with multiple influences (ie, glowsticks, waving, photons, mag lights). It eventually evolved into something that is distinctly liquid. A lot of people mix liquid and waving. Do what you want, it's cool.

[kaib0rg]

anxious to see how ridiculous this one gets

[King-of-Kurry]

Waving is illusion travelling IN your body, Liquiding is illusion OUTSIDE your body. Now according to my knowledge, liquiding isn't really a dance style in popping but some poppers use liquiding as part of transitions in between waving.
Correct me if im wrong.

Peace!

[TETRIS]

Waving is illusion travelling IN your body, Liquiding is illusion OUTSIDE your body.

I disagree with that statement!

[Dad]

I disagree with that statement!

I am reasonably skeptical about the truth of both claims until further clarification!

[musashi]

//Ge0m3tRiC//

I am reasonably skeptical about the truth of both claims until further clarification!

Its all subjective. /thread:p

[HgItch]

//Ge0m3tRiC//



Its all subjective. /thread:p

postmodernism ftw :p

[King-of-Kurry]

I disagree with that statement!
How come ?
Apart from ripple waves that go outwards and in, generally waving is an illusion travelling in your body. No?

[LOGiC]

I can tell from homie

[vinhegar]

[quote=LOGiC;12819]I can tell from homie

[HgItch]

Hehe before we all go any further with this thread. Just wanted to say thisthis:

I know I've dropped the line before, but I get a good vibe of respect and open-mindedness from the people here; such a difference from the other popping boards; so yea, much respect.

I just hope that we liquidheads have also matured from back then on the Wiggz and reflective boards to now enough to keep the discussion civil. I know that we have gotten into discussion threads like this in the Wiggz boards and it got mad heated :p

I was talking to Graph about how while I'm always a little cautious when this whole liquid vs waving issue comes up, I'm actually mad excited to see what comes of this discussion on these boards- because I get to hear what you nuskool poppers have to say about things.

The past is the past and made the present; and in the same way now the nuskool are the ones who will influence the future. I hope that our two communities can grow closer somehow through a discussion such as this and really learn much from one another.

PLUR

[TETRIS]

Man I dont have enough time to really say what I want to say so I gta keep it short.

I think waving cannot be described as something thats inside or outside of the body. The logic of waving is what makes it waving, not whether its inside or not. Makes no difference, Tyrone does the stray jacket waves, its basically out side of your body, underneath ur arm pits etc. even the G-style energy ball concept is out side of the body.

Its so hard to describe what the difference is, but its definitely not that. Waving can also have continuous flow... man this is a tough topic lol

[waveomatic]

waves are everywhere


light waves

sound waves

water waves


most of the world we as we know it consists of waves


There are waves inside, outside, topside, backside, there are NO rules to waves in or out of the body. Just because cats put labels and rules on liquid does not mean they apply to waving in any shape or form. Liquid is a dance that consists of mostly waving. There are other aspects, like digits, contours etc, but the most practiced form consists of waving. If you put rules on your waving while you do liquid, they do not apply to waving at all, for it has existed before liquid and before most here have practiced any shape of dance

Waving is waving. There are many waves. When someone does liquid but they are only waving, they are just waving with their own rules applied.

I believe liquid has achieved its own form, but the majority of people doing it are really just waving thinking they are doing liquid.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[HgItch]

This topic is very interesting as even most of us practitioners haven't come to a solidified conclusion on how to describe 'liquid,' or the key concept behind it of 'flow.' To drop a little background on how previous discussions have gone is that people have said what makes liquid 'liquid' is the concept of 'flow.' Yet it ends up being a circular argument because people simply conclude liquid=flow=liquid=etc etc. and nothing really gets expressed.

I think partly why liquid is so hard to distinguish from waving for some people is the fact that it was influenced heavily by waving. Erm... but I guess in order to really get deep into this discussion I have to lay down what my PERSONAL (people will disagree) belief of what the very very basic foundations of liquid are. I'm sure many of my brethren would disagree so definitely chime in if you guys read this thread :) :

1) Handflow 2) Armflow 3) Figure 8

MOST concepts (i hesitate to use the word 'all' here) that we have explored I believe can be derived from these foundations. For example. Rails can be seen as a combination of handflow and armflow. Folds are a derivative of handflow. Different ways to split will involved armflow, handflow, or figure 8 concepts. Builds can be seen as different ways to armflow while using miming techniques. Contours can be seen as derivatives of pure armflow, etc etc.

So whichever base concepts are used more heavily by a liquidhead will tend to propel his/her liquid to look more like waving or not.


*****NOTE NEXT SECTION IS PURE SPECULATION AND I HAVE NO CREDIBLE SOURCES SO YEA THESE ARE JUST MY RAMBLINGS :p********
This is pure speculation, but the handflow was probably more influenced by waving while the figure 8 probably emerged purely on its own through the rave culture. Armflow may have emerged as liquidheads expanded their range of dance from just their hands to their entire arms. So when one sees elements of waving in liquid it's probably because of the waving-influenced handflow; and when one sees more 'rigid hand/arm' concepts where no waves exist it may have been more influenced by figure 8 or armflow concepts. And these concepts have been brought to the current day where we find that if we maintain proper speed control we can still create the illusion of 'flow' even if we don't use any particular liquid concepts.

And that's my personal speculation as to why there's so much confusion, etc. as to if liquid=waving. My sort of weasely answer then would be yes and no because of what I have stated above :p I guess I have a more Eastern mindset (Taiwan represent lol) towards dance in the sense that yes, things can be BOTH **gasp** at the same time rather than the dichotomous or black/white philosophy that is a little more dominant in the West.
*****************END PERSONAL SPECULATION*****************

But yes, regardless of its roots, I believe liquid to be its own style of dance.

But like I said, this is a personal opinion thing, and I'm sure I've left a ton of stuff out that some of the more experienced liquidheads would object to. I'm still in the process of trying to grasp more fully what liquid is myself so yea... definitely open to changing my viewpoints.

........... but if you throw in digitz this whole thing gets REAL messy, REAL fast hahaha

PLUR

[LOGiC]

HAHAHA


waves CAN have a continuous flow, but so can boxes, tuts, glides, and everything else if it is linked properly. That still does not diminish the basic fact that a wave is, even by definition,

[Fiction]

When i started Raving i was introduced to liquiding, So i thought that was the actual name of dance i was doing, until i did a bit of research and seen that it was actually waving, to me waving and liquiding are the same, Just some one in the rave scene said " hey that looks like you have liquid through your body" so forth came the name liquid in the rave scene outside the scene i think most of us see it as waving. So i believe liquid and waving are all in the same, but just has a different name when you get in to a different scene. Just like tomato and tamato. Just as many of us heard the terminology "poplock" We have to describe that those are two different dances to people who dont really know the scene. I mean i like both words liquid and waving but in the end i believe its all the same.

[birdage]

Somebody else from floasis coming in here lol....

As a side note I'll change my ideas if something better comes along. Nothing is set in stone here.

I think hgitch broke it down pretty well. The line in the sand is definitely flow for me. And if you want an intricate debate on what flow is you can go jump in the topic on floasis.

Now just to clear up a few things I've read so far. This is going to be kind of complicated b/c liquid is really hard to explain- either you get it or you don't.

First off, another way to describe a main concept in liquid is one hand follows the other. Now the first thing that jumps in people's minds is somebody doing a handwave. Now I think this is one of the main reasons people get waving and liquid confused. But as a fyi the figure 8 is one hand following the other just in a different way. If you get that and you get how both ways of one hand following the other creates flow you can move onto another concept. That concept is the axis shift (basically using one hand to pull the other into a different plane).

If you start playing around with those ideas physically the concept of flow should become readily apparent.

Now I can do (and I assume most people on floasis can do) a whole liquid set without hitting a single wave. Just strictly using the concept of one hand following the other using figure eights and axis shifts.

The problem is the association of liquid with strictly the handwave.

Second, let's talk about the figure eight. The figure eight is just one idea of drawing figure eights underneath the physical movement of wrist rotations. The figure eight is the origin but wrist rotations are the expansion. (not everybody is going to agree with me on that one, but it's what I think).

Third, let's talk about arm flow. One of the most prominent ways armflow is shown was borrowed from skywalker. It's threads. Continuous threads don't have to have to have any waves mixed in. Still liquid though.

If you can understand theses differences then the gap between waving and liquid becomes very apparent. Two different planets. Just b/c waving and liquid are mixed doesn't mean they're the same. I mean I mix tuts into my liquid it doesn't mean liquid and tutting are the same or even branch out of the same tree.

The word we're looking for is synthesis. Pre-existing elements coming together to create something new. That's what liquid is about, creating something new and subjectively interpreting concepts and ideas. Liquid is not about wallowing in the past. i don't care who did the first figure eight or the first handwave all I care about is where liquid is going to go next.

[kaib0rg]

http://ballettalk.invisionzone.com/index.php?

ask them what popping is. yay for analogies.

[Ge0m3tRiC]

Liquid=Mobius strip, Waving=P[5,-5]-[-5,5]=21^21-21, Mobius+P=M+P^Indefinitely

I DIVIDED BY ZERO OH SHI-

[Dad]

I think it is enough to say that there is a distinction. If someone says to you, "liquid," and then another person says to you, "waving," two different images come to mind. I don't see any value in exploring the distinction further.

Waving can be synthetically (see more here (http://floasis.net/smf/index.php?topic=826.msg1127#msg1127)) defined to be inclusive of liquid, as many have poppers have done in the past. This is always seen by liquid dancers as an attempt by poppers to lay claim to liquid and undermine validity. Wavers don't see this as disrespectful, but here is why:

Liquid can similarly be defined such that waving is predicative of liquid. The only reason why this has not been done is because waving preceded liquid chronologically. However, conceptually speaking, chronological precedence does not hold much water (lol pun). For example, the concept of a "string" conceptually precedes an "atom," but chronologically speaking, the atom precedes the string.

Liquid dancers have generally had the courtesy not to pull this petty move on the popping community. In the future, it would be nice if poppers did the same. After all, an argument against your adversary that can be said for your own stance is not a fair argument.

I don't foresee any valuable knowledge or perspective coming from explicating the differences between liquid and waving, and such a discussion can be potentially divisive. I say learn what you want to learn, dance how you want to dance.

[Ge0m3tRiC]

On the contrary liquid is made up of 2^21 of the wave anatomy but used to connect or bend the numerical layers at the high negative and positive ends along both X and Y quadrants.

//2^21=example joint fractions//

In a non-moving cycle this would accommodate a P=10(2^21), however if movement were applied as an overlaying force it could simply rotate 2^21 to its negative values and back.

[Dad]

On the contrary liquid is made up of 2^21 of the wave anatomy but used to connect or bend the numerical layers at the high negative and positive ends along both X and Y quadrants.

//2^21=example joint fractions//

In a non-moving cycle this would accommodate a P=10(2^21), however if movement were applied as an overlaying force it could simply rotate 2^21 to its negative values and back.

I fucked your mom.

[kaib0rg]

I fucked your mom.

it's unfortunate that certain types of people can only understand this type of discussion. there's no room for discussion when everyone's dick is in each other's mouth.

GlitchWB: if you want to know what liquid is-- floasis.net (or alternatively, the forums, floasis.net/smf). if you want to know what waving is, westcoastpoppin.com. if you want to know what ballet is, go to a ballet forum, salsa--a salsa forum, etc.

[Ge0m3tRiC]

I think dad is a cool guy eh, concedes at probability/permutation debates, dosn't afraid of anything.

[Dad]

I think dad is a cool guy eh, concedes at probability/permutation debates, dosn't afraid of anything.

Actually, I does afraid of large insects.

[Ge0m3tRiC]

Actually, I does afraid of large insects.

Wrong meme is wrong. U fail at identifying metaphysical culture.

[Dad]

I just looked it up. 4chan is for pedos. Vive les goons!

[Ge0m3tRiC]

P.s. Simply repeating the variable in its opposite configuration does not assemble a proper junction in mental classification.

[Dad]

P.s. Simply repeating the variable in its opposite configuration does not assemble a proper junction in mental classification.


Define proper.

[Ge0m3tRiC]

I just looked it up. 4chan is for pedos. Vive les goons!

So I heard u leik mudkips:)

[Ge0m3tRiC]

Proper= Conforming to established standards of behavior or manners. This applies to mathematical and theoretical equations.

[Dad]

So I heard u leik mudkips:)

So I heard you like cocks.

[Ge0m3tRiC]

So I heard you like cocks.

The previous sentience is false.

Lets get back on topic....

[Dad]

Fair enough.

[kaib0rg]

Conforming to established standards of behavior or manners.

*Looks around*

sounds about right.

[Dad]

Proper= Conforming to established standards of behavior or manners. This applies to mathematical and theoretical equations.

The problem is that something about liquid fell outside of the established standards of waving.

[Ge0m3tRiC]

A)In an abstract orientation, liquid=/=waving via matality/feel.

B)However in a technical orientation, liquid aprx(2^21)^indef + waving aprx(21^21) confined to [5,-5] through [-5,5]. Meaning liquid shares a 2^21 fraction of waving, minus the indefinite continuation via [x,-y] and [-x,y].

Redundant statement is redundant.

[Dad]

A)In an abstract orientation, liquid=/=waving via matality/feel.

B)However in a technical orientation, liquid aprx(2^21)^indef + waving aprx(21^21) confined to [5,-5] through [-5,5]. Meaning liquid shares a 2^21 fraction of waving, minus the indefinite continuation via [x,-x] and [-x,x].

Redundant statement is redundant.


Your mom is redundant, and so was her pregnancy.

[HgItch]

sigh *_* can we please get back to the topic of the thread haha

[Ge0m3tRiC]

Your mom is redundant, and so was her pregnancy.

If this were a true statement, I would not be an only child.

I prefer the defensive methodology in debate. Think of me as a wall you can not penetrate.

[Dad]

Think of me as a wall you can not penetrate.


Think of me as the throbbing rocket that will explode on your wall.

[Ge0m3tRiC]

Think of me as the throbbing rocket that will explode on your wall.

Key fragment: "explode on your wall." Fragment implies continued existence of wall post rocket blow out.

I rest my point, hello world, I am still here.

[Dad]

Go to bed.

[HgItch]

***EDIT: from wcp chatbox

08/04/2008 01:59 PM <Dad> why are you still awake
08/04/2008 01:48 PM <Ge0m3tRiC> later bro
08/04/2008 01:43 PM <Dad> good night
08/04/2008 01:43 PM <Dad> you don't need to register to chat i don't think
08/04/2008 01:42 PM <Ge0m3tRiC> I need to sleep right now, I will make a floasis account tom
08/04/2008 01:38 PM <Dad> come hang out here
08/04/2008 01:38 PM <Dad> http://floasis.net/chat/flashchat.php
08/04/2008 01:37 PM <Dad> pretty circular
08/04/2008 01:37 PM <Dad> i don't know it is dum
08/04/2008 01:27 PM <Ge0m3tRiC> I wonder how long we can keep this debate going lol
08/04/2008 01:26 PM <Ge0m3tRiC> sup lol
08/04/2008 01:17 PM <Dad> haha
08/04/2008 01:17 PM <Dad> yo
08/04/2008 01:13 PM <Ge0m3tRiC> hello father


lol you guys should just come to floasis chat and battle it out there :P

[Dad]

Itchy, you are no fun.

[Ge0m3tRiC]

You=
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[HgItch]

lol pwn :(

[Dad]

I haven't used this for ages:

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h196/joonjangles/endthread.gif

[HgItch]

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m212/FoxCutie1010/getbacktowork.jpg

[Dad]

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m212/FoxCutie1010/getbacktowork.jpg


08/04/2008 06:21 AM <HgItch> (http://westcoastpoppin.com/member.php?u=87) dang joon how do i post a pic :sad:

[HgItch]

08/04/2008 06:21 AM <HgItch> (http://westcoastpoppin.com/member.php?u=87) dang joon how do i post a pic :sad:

I fail at the internet :(

[Dad]

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m212/FoxCutie1010/getbacktowork.jpg

All better :)

[HgItch]

as a courtesy here's one for you joon hehe

http://www.personainternet.com/psioteese/pwnd.jpg

[Ge0m3tRiC]

Joon, you and your co-workers need to get back to work! On another note your boog rolls are getting better, just follow through! Damn, that was fire!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPS3BSqFeDY

[Dad]

Go get a job that doesn't consist of deep frying potatoes.

[Graph]

damn you Geo for messing up this thread lol. I come into work today all excited thinking oh dip 4 pages of discussion and new material to read! NEGATIVE.

Dad you not helping haha.

[Dad]

Really? I thought this was the best liquid/waving thread that has ever been and will ever be.

[Graph]

haha

[waveomatic]

Hand flows are hand waves, usually consisting of one following the others direction and keeping the illusion fluid while traveling them in any direction. The hand flow consists of hand waves, finger waves, and arm movement mostly. The figure eight is just ONE direction that was commonly adopted in the electronic underground music scene and slowly used to identify with oneself and the dance they were doing.

If you look at 1:22, these are cats I grew up with, thats OKA doing a bit of hand waving right there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3F4CFdBnsk&feature=related

Hand flows were VERY popular for wavers where I was from, thats why I got soo many different types.

If you call yourself a liquid practitioner but only do hand flows, your really just waving in a liquid state of mind, whatever that may be.

How did liquid come about? We have cats that have been practicing liquid for many years, can you cats tell me how it came about? I can tell you cats how it got in the scene, I was a part of it in the earliest raves here in LA

In the late 80's, poppin was played out. If you went to a party and popped, you got laughed at, I know that sounds crazy, but thats how it was. At that time, party crews started throwing parties in abandon buildings, warehouses, out in the desert, etc. Electro music took a form on a more techno approach, we got influenced here by Detroit, NY, Chicago, and the UK at the time. The word RAVE did not exist yet.

The music to these parties were at a much faster BPM (beats per minute) so to go and hit continuously was way TOO tiring. Plus the beat was fast wiht my rides, so waving just seemed the most NATURAL style to do. Many poppers found sanctuary at these places, because no one laughed at us. We got down all night, hand flows, ground waves, etc, and cats were trippin out on it (at the time, no one did E, most everyone there that was on something was usually LSD) and by 92-93 cats were waving at many raves here. It was the NATURAL thing to do if you already knew how to do it, and if you didn't you would try to.

I don't know the east coast history, but thats what happened here in LA, and that is why I still get down at raves and most cats call what I do liquid.
I am really just waving. But waves are so underated, that cats have a hard time understanding there are no limits to it, like when cats use to explain what LIQUID is and then give a RULE to waving to make THEIR point. YOU CANT DO THAT HOMIES. How do you know what waving is when your doing it most of your dance but call it another name?

You can't just say 'this in not waving' when thats all that was displayed? You can't do a set of 95% waves, 5% digit and contours and then call it 100% liquid???

Can someone PLEASE add a clip here that shows LIQUID without any waving, as much as I know that it does exist, MOST clips don't show that, they show cats WAVING.

Hand flows, arm flows, and figures are waving. We have been doing that since the earliest of the 80's.

The only new concepts that I had seen were from the LPC. They broke things down and added to more than waving in the concept of liquid so it can be identified as something DIFFERENT than waving.

Waving came to raves through poppers. Liquid came to raves through waving. Later, cats built on that concept. Digits are very similar to guitar finger exercises and finger waves put together. Its a great blend. But all these figures and hand flows, they are over 20 years old.

Can someone show us a clip of LIQUID without any WAVING?


Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[Dad]

Can someone PLEASE add a clip here that shows LIQUID without any waving, as much as I know that it does exist, MOST clips don't show that, they show cats WAVING.

Sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oi_o4iN39U

If you call yourself a liquid practitioner but only do hand flows, your really just waving in a liquid state of mind, whatever that may be.

Actually, you are doing liquid in a waving state of mind. How can a wave exist without a medium?

How did liquid come about?

By creating trails with glowsticks, mag lights, white gloves and blacklights, and photons. Later, these dancers found that the illusion held up without the lights. I've never heard of this waving business is that you are carrying on about.

[kaib0rg]

dad you're my hero.


this entire thread is salsa dancers telling Julliard students what ballet is.

[waveomatic]

LOL on monster style as the example!

what came first the chicken or the egg?

Waving pre existed liquid and share some SAME concepts, why be so quick to dismiss it in any theory?

Glowsticks and sticking are still going on, they are not the missing link to liquid and waving but shared the same circles and influences(figure 8's for example), how long have you been going to raves? When was the first time you seen it?

I'm carrying about what I lived, not what I was told. I was part of the first raves here in Los Angeles. I seen the transition before ANYONE was sticking brutha.

I can only speak of what I experienced here in LA. Dad, how long you been attending raves and where did you get your information from?

I have yet to see a clip of only liquid no waving.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[Dad]

Glowsticks and sticking are still going on, they are not the missing link to liquid and waving but shared the same circles and influences(figure 8's for example), how long have you been going to raves? When was the first time you seen it?

I was at the acid parties in England, and then the Storm raves in Brooklyn. These were the first raves. Before that, I was partying in Larry Levan's warehouse parties during the disco days. Nobody can possibly have more cred than me. This is what I lived, so you can accept my word that liquid precedes waving, as substance precedes essence.

[jigsaw]

Dad is kind of pwning you Waveo.

[kaib0rg]

I was at the acid parties in England, and then the Storm raves in Brooklyn. These were the first raves. Before that, I was partying in Larry Levan's warehouse parties during the disco days. Nobody can possibly have more cred than me. This is what I lived, so you can accept my word that liquid precedes waving, as substance precedes essence.

you beat me to this post. damn you!

[kaib0rg]

i have more credibility on what liquid is than anyone that's been any rave on these forums and here's why:

i actually do liquid.

anyone reading this--please get your facts from someone who is devoted to the dance. you wouldn't cite a theologian on the theory of evolution, now would you?

[Graph]

You actually do liquid...thats great. Keep in mind some of the people here started at raves with liquid just as you did. Tim (animatronix) started with liquid, I started with liquid, Funktion was big into liquid at one point in time.

So your credibility isn't much greater than mine or theirs brah!

Just because you study evolution doesn't mean you know everything about it, or even have the right facts about it. Maybe your teacher was a loon and taught evolution completely wrong.

[Dad]

You actually do liquid...thats great. Keep in mind some of the people here started at raves with liquid just as you did. Tim (animatronix) started with liquid, I started with liquid, Funktion was big into liquid at one point in time.

No, these people were just waving.

[Graph]

I wasn't....i was introduced to liquid first and foremost as liquid. LPC vid was the first video i saw. So I was familiar with what it is. Popping came later and guess what also came later, me getting into waves :)

[Dad]

I wasn't....i was introduced to liquid first and foremost as liquid. LPC vid was the first video i saw. So I was familiar with what it is. Popping came later and guess what also came later, me getting into waves :)

I don't get it. I thought liquid was waving.

[Graph]

I spoke to HgItch yesterday and told him my standpoint. While I see liquid as being a separate entity with lots of similarities to waving, I put it on the same page as Snaking and Cobra are to waving. They are within the waving style, but are separate things all together right? This is how I view liquid as well, it is a part of waving, yet its own thing. Doesn't detract from what it is in my opinion.

[Dad]

Yeah, but waving sucks. I don't want cool styles to be a part of a sucky style.

[kaib0rg]

it detracts from liquid by removing the cultural elements that the dance stems from and replacing them with the culture that spawned waving instead.

it'd be like me saying popping came from UK discotheques in the 70's. Sure, popping is still popping but i just removed its culture.

[Graph]

well you jsut so happen to be a part of waving so you are a sucky/cool guy now!

[Graph]

i agree kai....but....i'm also not someone that needs to see a deep culture/history behind things for i did not live/was not active during this time. I'm here now, I see things how i see them now. I can't go back in time to prove/disprove anyone, we all have different views, nobody is right or wrong.

Everyone that claims different history for anything is only capable of telling the history they were taught, doesn't mean everything they were taught is correct. People fabricate things, people tell truth, people are people and really unless any of us were standing at the correct place at the correct time in history how do we really know what the truth is? We don't, plain and simple.

We can only take peoples words for things as we werent' around. Look at the EB's for example, they supposedly have told lies, but who hasn't? You think everything people say is absolute truth?

[kaib0rg]

if testimony, text, and extrapolation counted for nothing, who's to say anything ever really happened in the past. it couldve been placed as in illusion by a mischeivious imp!

/descartes

[waveomatic]

Dad is kind of pwning you Waveo.

LOL jigsaw, especially from the abundance of clips that show liquid without any form of waving.


I was at the acid parties in England, and then the Storm raves in Brooklyn. These were the first raves. Before that, I was partying in Larry Levan's warehouse parties during the disco days. Nobody can possibly have more cred than me. This is what I lived, so you can accept my word that liquid precedes waving, as substance precedes essence.


LOL

[Dad]

Wait, what if dreams were reality and reality were dreams? Oh shit. Hold on. Oh shit.

[LOGiC]

NO, NO, NO!!!


You guys are all wrong

[waveomatic]

Kai, I am not saying the are exactly the same, the environment is different and so is the music and vibe, when I went to the first "raves" here, I was not in the state of mind of poppin to funk, I was riding all the modulated bass lines and so forth, it was a different vibe in that scene as opposed to the first massives here called Uncle Jam Army Functions, that were like raves but ALL funk and electro ONLY. The were held at places like the LA Sports Arena, and they were very similar to what massives looked like in the numbers today.

These parties got "outlawed" because of the gang violence that started to show up. Certain cats formed "party crews", while others went to the ever growing scene of Hip Hop. The ones that were collecting music from the UK for example, were throwing map point parties, completely illegal. For example, it was through acid house that started spinning jungle here first, in 92 cats were spinning LTJ Bukem's Demon Seed, which I was hand flowing as others were continuously to it.

The music we dance to at these parties originally came for other places, but the MOVEMENTS we did came from the West Coast. Our waves got stuck in their music and all of a sudden there was Reeses Peanut Butter Cups.

The movements you see, primarily the waving ones, originated here in Cali as far as street dance is concerned. These same movements were adopted in other scenes.

There must of been a social effort that spanned throughout many cities, primarily the ones that had the electronic music scene first. But just like we have jungle DJ's here in LA, they all know were it came from. Other scenes seem to dismiss where or how what they do came from.

When was the first time you guys ever seen someone doing a hand flow at a party?

I have seen it in the 80's. I did it in the 80's. I still do it today and cats think I'm doing liquid, why is that?

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[kaib0rg]

the problem is you think handflow = handwave. as if any associative relationship between two appendages must be a wave. that's why this discussion is pointless, because you've defined the term so broadly that it covers things that don't belong to it.

[Dad]

I have seen it in the 80's. I did it in the 80's. I still do it today and cats think I'm doing liquid, why is that?


Because you don't do it as well as us.

[waveomatic]

Nothing is pointless unless no one is willing to share thier views and express their opinions on the subject.

The movements speak for themselves, and you forget that I have said the liquid has achieved its own form, I have seen it done. What I also see is a large amount of people claiming they are doing liquid and they are doing hand flows, and yes, hand flows and hand waves are very similar to the point of being identical to some.

Link a clip of a hand flow that you believe is not hand waving. We can discuss it all day, but what proves the point better than the dance?

I am not saying it does not exist, I am saying many have confused the two, many cats dance doing only waving and claim they are doing liquid.

I have given the same take on the LPC boards over 5 years ago, this is not new information, hehe.

I will be happy to make a clip to prove my point with hand flows and hand waves.
I just ask someone to do the same, like I said, the dance speaks best for itself.

Because you don't do it as well as us.

You could be right, show me a clip of you doing it.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[waveomatic]

How about you cats link some clips of hand flows?

That would be a great start, hehe.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[Dad]

You could be right, show me a clip of you doing it.



Can you do liquid better than this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQYOUKQyIxE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMROQrdU_3I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nayI4rKkD2g


I am not asking you whether this is waving or not. Until you can do this better than them, it is liquid and that is that. Sorry.

[waveomatic]

I am not asking you whether this is waving or not. Until you can do this better than them, it is liquid and that is that. Sorry.


Honestly bro, technically, the first clips was mostly hand and finger waving, and traces


Was it the leg movements that made it liquid?


I think I can wave better....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cGikts5EOAw

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[kaib0rg]

yeah well i can do digitz better than you can bboy, take that!

[Graph]

your opinion is exactly that yours.....so to each his own....we agree to disagree and i disagree with you.

since when do you have to do something better than someone in order to prove that you are doing something? poppers are superior in waves to most of the liquid guys so does this mean liquid guys aren't trying to wave? they must not be since they aren't better than us.

so until you can out wave poppers you aren't doing waves. <--- makes no sense.
Until you can do this better than them, it is liquid and that is that. Sorry. <---makes no sense

even someone attempting bad waves is doing exactly that...attempting bad waves. doesn't mean you aren't waving

[LOGiC]

"""""""The music we dance to at these parties originally came for other places, but the MOVEMENTS we did came from the West Coast. Our waves got stuck in their music and all of a sudden there was Reeses Peanut Butter Cups."""""""

The movements you see, primarily the waving ones, originated here in Cali as far as street dance is concerned. These same movements were adopted in other scenes.

Wave~O


YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT WAVO!!!!!!

all of the drum and bass, jungle, grime, dubstep and everything else we've come to love originated in the massives elsewhere.... BUT..... no one at these parties were dancing, they were all just standing around the jungle room, waiting for an original gangsta from cali to come and say "this is how you make movements with your body..."

..."next, i'll show you how to make fire... so you can cook your saber-tooth tiger meat."










I love cali to death

[waveomatic]

I'm not asking for props, I'm saying its a collective movement that others are not fully accepting or researching all that is there.

I am stating that the movements used in liquid when it comes to waving originated here, not saying we started the whole movement at all.

I was waving at the first jungle parties here. Ask the promoters, hehe. Ask DJ's, like Machette or R.A.W. and they will tell you I was getting down at their earliest sets, hehe

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[waveomatic]

We took our waving to desert parties called Moon Tribe parties through the 90's too.

Anyone know about Moon Tribe?

I still don't see a clip of liquid with NO waving in it. That would be a great start for any argument. And I don't mean just digits, hehe. Seriously, anyone?

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[jigsaw]

this thread just turned into a clip battle!

yes!

i'll have to peep when I get home.

isn't it weird how the internet makes things so easy to be a pissing contest?

i'll show you my best youtube clip yah big namby pamby wackadelic no liquid doing waving wannabee!

[LOGiC]

I'm not asking for props, I'm saying its a collective movement that others are not fully accepting or researching all that is there.



All i'm saying to you homie, and this is not an attack, is practice what you preach

this goes to all OG's


accept that maybe... just maybe... scenes that were around at the same time, or even long before, were already doing popping and styles similar to those that were emerging on the west coast

and that as the scenes merged, similar ideas got labled other names, to better categorize them.



it would not surpise me if the the first poppers and isolationsists came from the UK.


"steetdance"... other cities and countries have streets also, where people rave and dance, and where they are broke.

do not assume, because you could afford a camcorder 30 years ago, that you were the only ones doing it.




think about it.




.

[jigsaw]

We took our waving to desert parties called Moon Tribe parties through the 90's too.

Anyone know about Moon Tribe?

I still don't see a clip of liquid with NO waving in it. That would be a great start for any argument. And I don't mean just digits, hehe. Seriously, anyone?

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

I was at the Moontribe 5 yr anniversary. My friend Tiffany was there on some sacrament, with HER MOM!

That was the one where they had the bunch of peeps up on the cliffs that had black suits with glow strings tied to them that made them look like stick figures.

SO FUGGIN TRIPPY!

[waveomatic]

Not a clip battle at all, its just showing our points through dance. Its not a pissing contest unless your perception only sees that, which makes you a negative person, jigsaw.

This is a positive thread, one that will share opinions and views, clips can help this one out a lot. Its not a battle, but we CAN use clips to help up us out since we can't teleport yet to show someone what we mean.


yes!

My you get very happy easy Jigsaw, hehe.


Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[waveomatic]

do not assume, because you could afford a camcorder 30 years ago, that you were the only ones doing it.




think about it.

never said that, I said its COLLECTIVE that made it happen, its other assuming that we WERE NOT doing it, you got it the other way around.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[TETRIS]

This is a great debate fellas, lets keep it goin and keep it positive

[waveomatic]

LOL jigsaw, MOON TRIBE's were OFF THE CHAIN!!!

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[birdage]

Okay mimes do handwaves. Does that mean that everything mimes do should be classified under the dance style called waving?

Or could it be that the handwave is just one thing in a group of many things that mimes do that make miming, miming?

Now before I go any further I would like to know how you, waveo, would define hand flow and arm flow. I think semantics are taking over the purity of movement from which the names manifested themselves. (<- that was probably the most confusing sentence I've ever written)

In other words we are working with a different set of definitions.

If you think figure eights are waving and arm flow is waving then I'm done here and will have to just disagree with you. I don't think they're waving.


And if you can explain to me how a axis shift is a wave then I'll fully concede liquid is waving.

[waveomatic]

Okay mimes do handwaves. Does that mean that everything mimes do should be classified under the dance style called waving?

No, but if it was executed the in the same fashion, it shows its influence.
Mimes did floats, hits, etc too. No one is saying that miming did not influence poppin. If a popper is miming, he/she is miming.

Or could it be that the handwave is just one thing in a group of many things that mimes do that make miming, miming?

Exactly. And hand waves are one of the many things that make up waving and liquid.

Now before I go any further I would like to know how you, waveo, would define hand flow and arm flow. I think semantics are taking over the purity of movement from which the names manifested themselves. (<- that was probably the most confusing sentence I've ever written)
Now before I go any further I would like to know how you, waveo, would define hand flow and arm flow. I think semantics are taking over the purity of movement from which the names manifested themselves. (<- that was probably the most confusing sentence I've ever written)

In other words we are working with a different set of definitions.

If you think figure eights are waving and arm flow is waving then I'm done here and will have to just disagree with you. I don't think they're waving.


And if you can explain to me how a axis shift is a wave then I'll fully concede liquid is waving.

I'll make a clip and try to explain it.

give me a few minutes....

[Dad]

I think I can wave better....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cGikts5EOAw

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O


Hahaha, no. Nice waves, but even if liquid is considered a substyle of waving, your liquid is terrible.

[Graph]

sooo if his liquid is terrible.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owQDgvuMgO4&eurl=http://floasis.net/smf/index.php?topic=610.0

then this liquid is incredible?


point being....clips prove hardly anything

[resleeve]

This discussion got way overly technical for its own good.

Everyone here sounds like shiftedshapes.

The common person just won't see the difference. People will see waves and call them liquid, and they'll see liquid and call it waves. There are people that will see both and call them raving.

I was taught "this is what a wave is" but years later there are so many different waving styles, the whole idea of what a wave is suppose to look is subjective. Sometimes it contradicts the next person's view of how a wave should be.

Same thing with liquid, how do we know there are so many versions of it that these concepts and definitions are just subjective. What if tuberroni(lol) actually learned from someone who did it in the 50's to different music, should he and his students get shot down because it is different from that in floasis.net?

Remember when everyone at wiggles forum shot down the term poplocking years back when the EB's view on popping was the popular view, despite Jazzy J of the EBs teaching it. And now theres documents of people from the original Electric Boogaloo Lockers saying that Sam didn't invent anything. So is everyone who learned popping beneath the EBs wrong? Honestly the whole thing doesnt matter because I don't think common person gives a damn.
________
ILoveLove (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/ILoveLove/)

[Graph]

^^^^^

true my friend so true!

in the end....you dance, i dance, we dance, we should all hug and dance in unison!

so peace to everyone that reps on the dance flo!

[waveomatic]

Hahaha, no. Nice waves, but even if liquid is considered a substyle of waving, your liquid is terrible.

I am not claiming that I am doing liquid on that clip, like you claim you are doing liquid but really mostly are waving. If my liquid is terrible, what does that say about your waving when your liquid clips consist of mostly waves? hehe

clips are processing, I explain the concept of hand flow in relationship to waving.

[waveomatic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEYdnWW1bTI


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jpUAWS84JU

[birdage]

This discussion got way overly technical for its own good.

Everyone here sounds like shiftedshapes.

The common person just won't see the difference. People will see waves and call them liquid, and they'll see liquid and call it waves. There are people that will see both and call them raving.

I was taught "this is what a wave is" but years later there are so many different waving styles, the whole idea of what a wave is suppose to look is subjective. Sometimes it contradicts the next person's view of how a wave should be.

Same thing with liquid, how do we know there are so many versions of it that these concepts and definitions are just subjective. What if tuberroni(lol) actually learned from someone who did it in the 50's to different music, should he and his students get shot down because it is different from that in floasis.net?

Remember when everyone at wiggles forum shot down the term poplocking years back when the EB's view on popping was the popular view, despite Jazzy J of the EBs teaching it. And now theres documents of people from the original Electric Boogaloo Lockers saying that Sam didn't invent anything. So is everyone who learned popping beneath the EBs wrong? Honestly the whole thing doesnt matter because I don't think common person gives a damn.

I disagree with you. This board is not for the common man. It's for dancers who hopefully want to progress. Therefore any discussion concerning the philosophical or technical aspects of dance should be accepted. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Furthermore, I frequently lurk this board but rarely ever post b/c it seems like most people on here can't talk civilly. I could see how someone could turn this thread into a fight or whatever if they see this argument as a win lose situation.

I do not see this argument as a win lose situation. I see it as an exchange of subjective ideas. And yes all these ideas are subjective. I can almost assure you this thread will have no winner. But is that what we are really looking for?

I'm here to learn about other people's ideas. I'm here to have my ideas challenged by a different group of dancers. I'm here to hopefully change some of my ideas.

And sure all ideas are subjective, but actually getting your subjective ideas challenged is a lot harder than smugly sitting back and saying there is nothing new under the sun.

[Graph]

i like your approach birdage! i still think there is a lot we can all gain from one another so hopefully we can still keep all of this respectable. hearing from both sides is good fo bidnezz!

[birdage]

Interesting ideas wavo. I've got to go to work. If somebody doesn't hit up a rebuttal video I'll do one tonight. If I get the chance I'll do a liquid video with no waves too..

[resleeve]

Exchanging of ideas is cool in my book but some of these posts scream "my opinion is more valid than yours" that lead to a huge war on reflective years back.
________
Orchidina (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/Orchidina/)

[Ge0m3tRiC]

ITT: People who don't understand theorem. Subjective opinions. re-written paradoxical statements in desperate attempts to confuse, detract, and curb circular logic into the discussion. And one hot Korean dance clip proving this thread still could be made of win.



Hi Joon! How is work? You are off in 15 min! YAY!

[waveomatic]

Interesting ideas wavo. I've got to go to work. If somebody doesn't hit up a rebuttal video I'll do one tonight. If I get the chance I'll do a liquid video with no waves too..

Nice bro, I am looking forward to it.

An exchange of ideas is to hopefully show ones validity to their statements and opinions through the beautiful medium we all know as communication. An idea gets enforced through its validation, otherwise, its only an "idea". Knowledge is to ask questions and hopefully find answers THROUGH ideas, but to get an answer we must look at what is valid.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[Dad]

since when do you have to do something better than someone in order to prove that you are doing something?


Since this was the United States of America and not Injunland. USA! USA!

[Ge0m3tRiC]

damn you Geo for messing up this thread lol. I come into work today all excited thinking oh dip 4 pages of discussion and new material to read! NEGATIVE.

Dad you not helping haha.

Didn't mess it up, merely worded the issue in terms people didn't understand. Being a gridded network is really hard Drew:T Sometimes people do not want to hear math to confirm something, however it is the end all answerer and the one language that reaches beyond cultural boundaries.

[Ge0m3tRiC]

Put that in ur pipe and smoke it:p

[Graph]

touche dad...haha touche! America...f*ck yeahhh....comin' again to save tha mutha f*ckin day yeah....America....f*ck yeah...freedom is the only way!

[Ge0m3tRiC]

Terrorists your days are through....

[Ge0m3tRiC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQYOUKQyIxEhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMROQrdU_3Ihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nayI4rKkD2g^less then<greater thenvhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPS3BSqFeDYThese guys can also give u tickets!

[Fiction]

Wow i Actually watched this, am i feel like i was robbed of my man hood........

[Ge0m3tRiC]

Wow i Actually watched this, am i feel like i was robbed of my man hood........

It will only make u stronger....

[Harbor Sound]

Wave-o, I was just curious as to what exactly you want out of all this. I read the whole thread, and I'm still kind of confused as to the idea you're trying to communicate to all of us, especially the liquid dancers. I assure you that the people that practice liquid have no intention of bending over and sucking the dick of waving just because. Honestly, that's really all I see you wanting.

I'm glad that what we do is similar, but the roads of liquid and waving diverged a long long time ago. As you are already aware, we are a culture with our own history which you, the wavers, are indeed a part of. In fact, waving is just as much a part of our history, our foundation, and our culture as are glowsticks, poi, maglights of all shapes and sizes, white gloves, the drugs, and the music. You are part of a pie. However, you are not the source of the pie or the recipe.

Let’s use a couple of examples to illustrate this point. The first kid that taught me liquid was from California near where you guys live in LA. He had a style that was rooted in a hand wave. The other kid who taught me how to do liquid was from New Jersey. He had a style that was obviously rooted in glowsticking and contained no hand wave. The first movement that I learned was a figure 8. No doubt, you know this movement from the countless raves you saw geeked out kids using glowsticks at. The other person I’d like to use as an example is Tiny Love. Tiny Love has a style that is very reminiscent of mime and glowsticks/lights. For a long time, he had never seen kids waving at parties or doing anything like popping or the related styles. Yet he practiced both liquid and lights. Hence, the name of the crew was Liquid Lights.

Now, try this as a curious observation. Liquid Pop Eric and Tiny Love learned what they did from different sources with different backgrounds in different areas. They practiced, and still do, fundamentally different styles. The point of this observation is that liquid does not come from waving directly. In fact, liquid is not the product of anything or anyone. Liquid is a unique cultural expression that is an amalgamation of ideas both new and existing. It is nothing more than a cultural phenomenon. Furthermore, the name is almost assuredly derived from some fucked up kid telling some other kid to do that liquid shit, and it caught on.

Think about this. The people who participated in the rave scene traveled extensively. You get enough people in one scene seeing, doing, and communicating things that are similar, and eventually, it becomes something specific. That something is what we call liquid. If what you want is credit, then there it is. You’re part of, but you ain’t it.

As for the hand wave, I have personally heard at least 50 to 100 distinct stories as to where their hand wave came from that do not involve waving. I have also heard equally as many stories that involve waving. Somewhere along the way, the hand wave became the preferred tool to use in expressing the dance style of liquid, but it is most certainly not the only tool. All of us learned liquid in a manner that involved use of a hand wave. But that’s the thing about liquid, and its history. It’s a dance communicated through the hands, and we were taught it’s supposed to look fluid. So, it’s only natural that one of our most basic instruments is a hand wave. But what is a hand wave, and how does it relate to waving?

Here’s a little side story. I had a conversation with Tiny a while back about his history in the dance scene. He told me about the first time he did what today we would call a rail. He said they were at a house partying, dancing, and trying to bug each other out, and he followed the outline of the top of a piece of furniture. Now, most furniture is square and to outline a right angle your joints have to bend to do so. The only reason I’m pointing this out is to illustrate that the very wave like movement used in both waving or liquid almost always involves joints rising and falling in succession. It is a type of movement that looks like a wave or liquid because it is fluid. But is fluid movement liquid or waving? Absolutely not, there is at least a minimal amount of context necessary for the very idea of a style to exist in the first place.

So for me, there is an obvious next question. What the fuck is waving? I have no idea, but if waving is connected to mime, then aren’t you just communicating a form of mime? If liquid is connected to waving and mime, then isn’t it just communicating a more specific form of mime? Mime has rhythms. Mime is probably more pure a form to communicate both modes and methods of movement. However, your dance has its own history and context to which it is inextricably tied as ours does. Liquid is a dance that is simply a cultural phenomenon that stole ideas from everywhere and pressed them into an expression which we call our own. This is no different than what popping did or even Don Campbell. The process is simply the recycling and reinvention of the existing ideas to which our own creations are added. Mimes don't stand around and say you're just undulating or clicking. The history of a dance does not make the expression any less yours, in the case of waving, or ours, in the case of liquid.

I think it’s fascinating to look at how our two cultures are connected. I think that the art that you guys have managed to create is unbelievable. I have the utmost respect for what all of you do. But I think if you genuinely want our respect as a community, then you will have to respect what we do as our own. It may be similar but it is a distinct form of expression which some of us have devoted years to preserve and expand. We do not have a huge collection of media. We don’t have our best work on film. We don’t have virtually anything that your community has, but we do have passion. And in some corners, we have and continue to develop our talent. We are not simply trying to push a dance, but preserve a cultural history. I know that all of you are very aware of how difficult that can be. Try to understand why we are so resistant and argumentative. But the issue of respect runs deep. At the end of the day, I have always seen this debate as a matter of respect and nothing more. As a person, I have respect for the individuals who are willing to respect what I do regardless of their opinions. To me, this debate is kind of similar to finger tutz and digitz. They both influence each other, but have distinct histories. If we can respect that fact, then we can both learn endless things from one another. We can afford ourselves the opportunity to be inspired and to truly blend the lines of style to create something entirely new. I assure you that neither side has provided the other with the chance to do just that.

[Fiction]

It will only make u stronger....

Wow I hope your right, for some reason i wanna dance on a box, wearing tights j/k LOL

[waveomatic]

Wave-o, I was just curious as to what exactly you want out of all this.

Knowledge being shared, and an understanding and distinction to what people consider waving and liquid.

I read the whole thread, and I'm still kind of confused as to the idea you're trying to communicate to all of us, especially the liquid dancers. I assure you that the people that practice liquid have no intention of bending over and sucking the dick of waving just because. Honestly, that's really all I see you wanting.

Where am I asking for that, trust me bro, I tell cats to knee pads to practice their ground moves, not to worship anyone. If thats all you see me wanting, then discuss the facts and opinions given, not your psychological evaluations of my motives. If I wanted to push anything I would of been on FLOASIS.NET doing it, not here.

[waveomatic]

I think it’s fascinating to look at how our two cultures are connected.It is, but don't act like waving does not play a role, and that you cats came up with all those waves on your own. That is just silly. Show me a clip of liquid with no waving, I am still waiting. Not attacking anyone, but searching for knowledge. If anyone was doing waves like I did in the 80's but they did it in the 60's, I would WANT TO hear them out, you cats act like what we did here in OUR electronic scene played no role.

GUESS WHAT, the movements you do ORIGINATED here when you do hand flows and traces. Otherwise, prove me that someone else did them first. You mentioned cats that I have met, Tiny is a really dope cat, and I would love to talk to him because he will discuss facts and opinions, not just dismiss anyone.

New york gave the world hip hop, now rapping has gone beyond that.
Chicago gave us a house scene that spawned from a disco scene.
UK and Detroit gave us electronic music in the different forms
California gave cats poppin, now we see many elements in different scenes.

I look at your liquid clips, I see move that ORIGINATED here. So, there is much reason for discussion if you cats care about what you are doing and want to here all sides, otherwise you trying to give me an answer to an equation BUT you haven't even done all the math.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

booyaa tribe in very early 80's known then as Blue City Crew..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3F4CFdBnsk&feature=related

at 1:22 it shows him doing a hand flow. This is over 25 years ago.

[waveomatic]

Whats a shame is that poppers like myself are giving liquid props and state that it has progressed on its own now, but liquid cats are downplaying waving as being the main element when 90 percent of all THEIR clips show waving.

Its that elementary, its not rocket science ya'll.

[Fiction]

I see all factors of liquid and waving, and many gave all these mathimatical equations and real intricate way of explaining things that took me about 3 times to read to fully understand, Ravers will say (Iam still a raver/kandy kid at heart even though i dont look it anymore) liquid is a different style of dance than waving, and wavers will say that the root of liquid comes from waving (which i believe is true) But in the end what does it matter if they are the same or the different, If that dance gives you a the feeling of liquid then its liquiding, if it gives you the feeling of waving then its waving, if gives you the feeling of flowing then you flowing, this dance is a sense of feelings. I have many dancers ask me how i do a move like floating, i tell the basics of the move but then tell them there is a feeling involved, This Dance that we do is a feeling, It is us laughing, Crying, Angered, Happy, etc... So there shouldnt be a big debate about what is what, but we all share a type of dance that is both beautiful and expressive. May it be liquiding or waving we all share one thing in common the passion to dance.

Lets all unite under the big Dance floor in the sky
Fiction

[Harbor Sound]

And since people need documented things, wave0 and I talked in the chat box (best feature on the site), and everything is cool. We were able to better understand where one another was coming from. I would advise more people to include this step. The real time communication part.

[waveomatic]

That was a GREAT convo, we were on the same page when our posts looked like we were reading different books all together. hehe

Props homie, hail to the King, hehe (King George in the house!)

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[HgItch]

Hey all. Glad things got resolve well :) Hey wavo I tried to make a clip using what we generally refer to as 'rigidhand' styles, where no handflow is used. In this clip I tried as much as I could to hold relatively the same hand positions the whole time but I'm sure there are a few second here and there where muscle memory found its way back in :P

But yea I read your post and I realized why the debate got heated. I am in no way downplaying the immense role waving has influenced the dance of liquid and how it's become a foundational part of it. Much props to OG wavers who took waving to the raves and parties. In all honesty, when I was making this clip I found it really hard not to use any waving at all. I felt like 85%-90% of my repitore was taken away and it was definitely difficult to keep in mind not to use any waving at all in my liquid as it has become an integral part of my liquid style (if you watch any other clips I have).

This clip here is just to demonstrate the 'flow' concept without the use of handflow and waves to kind of support how liquid has indeed evolved and become a dance unto its own like you said wavo. One thing I keep wanting to emphasize is that I do believe the liquid is BOTH waving and 'liquid/flow' and that a dance does not have to be mutually exclusive; much like a venn diagram. There are parts that fall into what could be considered waving and parts that don't. So that's why I personally believe that it's not a full 'substyle' of waving but perhaps a 'parallel/intersection' style.

Sorry, I'm not the best person to demonstrate the rigidhand concepts from our community. People like Tiger or Austin could have done 100x better job with what I have here but this is for pure demonstration purposes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmcSW4cqG9w

P. L. U. R.

[waveomatic]

I enjoyed that clip bro. I love your honesty too. It is really hard to do it without waving, and even though your not going through the pivotal parts of your hands with a wave motion, your concept is still driven by tracing, your just not following through with a hand wave or arm wave while doing it.

Your concept is dope, it is showing a flow, but almost one that wants to be used with while waving to make it more "flowable". Its like your tracing but you stripped out the technical part of the hand wave mostly.

Did you initially make these directions your going with a wave involved? It seems like a wave would compliment them more, thats why I say that.

I feel you have a "martial arts" feel too, I feel you have also incorporated some sort of discipline in your dance, a very flowing one at that.

I really like how you DON'T neglect your lower half of your body. You find trails and traces all throughout the legs in all types of positions and stances. This is were liquid has shined more that just waving in my opinion. See, what makes liquid so cool to me is that you cats are willing to try more "out the box" waves than most poppers.
I hang out and get down with Elsewhere and Skywalker, last week even, and we always mention that the electronic music scene has taken more "chances" with waves than the funk scene has in the last decade.

This is what I mean, how liquid has kept the freedom of rules to flow outside the norm. Where poppin was being preached with rules, liquid was more freedom of self expression. These are things to be proud of.

Waving was like that back in the 80's, it kept trying new things. Look at Mr Wave, Poppin Taco, Stokes, Shrimp, etc, all had a different way of waving. It was not like five years ago when most everyone was doing the same wave after wave in poppin, just like the same boog roll after boog roll. People were calling other cats clones for boogaloo, when waving was suffering from the same problem, hehe.


It's great to discuss these things because we find our similarities more than our differences when the physical motions of the dance have so much in common.

Trust me, I do not want credit or am trying to get it for liquid, but showing you cats we did the SAME flows. I was not the first, I was taught the hand flow by a cat called Deno that lived here in Harbor City in 81, taught me how to twist it to a figure 8 for example, do more than just finger wave it. We all just added our own flavor to it, creating more directions, feels, and approaches to the hand flows, finger waves, and traces.

Like I said, if I met someone that was doing the same type of waves in the 60's, I would really want to hear them out and see where they learned it from, its been a HUGE part of my life, I started waving hardcore in 1980, and even if I didnt practice as much as I did in its hayday, I always got down when I felt it throughout all the years till now. It can never leave you when you get knee deep in it. I wouldn't be able to make a clip and show you cats my flow if I was lying, hehe, and I have no problem showing cats with the dance, never have.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[HgItch]

Your concept is dope, it is showing a flow, but almost one that wants to be used with while waving to make it more "flowable". Its like your tracing but you stripped out the technical part of the hand wave mostly.

Did you initially make these directions your going with a wave involved? It seems like a wave would compliment them more, thats why I say that.

I feel you have a "martial arts" feel too, I feel you have also incorporated some sort of discipline in your dance, a very flowing one at that.


Thx for the comments :) Yea this isn't the way I danced normally at all. I literately took my basic style, stripped it of all I thought had waving in it, and this is what came out. I took out all the handflow, waving armflow, fingerwaves, normal waves, etc etc. and just tried to stick to basic 'flow.' Usually I use a lot more waves with the traces, and a lot more handwaving. My body felt extremely awkward as I filmed this clip tonight cause it was the first time I tried anything like this.

So I guess in reference to your tracing comment, is a trace without a wave underneath it considered a wave? ;) (we call those contours, when we trace without a wave underneath).

As to the whole martial arts thing, yea. I'm a big fan of extremely bad kungfu movies :P My full liquid style incorporates bits and pieces of taichi, bagua, and other random 'soft' styles that I pick up here and there through imitation. If you want to see what my liquid usually looks like just hit up my youtube link in my sig.

But yea I'm loving that both sides are dropping a lot of good history as well as good thoughts. Best part is this is probably the first time this discussion ever came up without heads rolling :p

[birdage]

Hgitch has dope flow and really good ground moves. Yeah he pretty much showed the difference right there. But anyways after all that mumbo jumbo I was saying this is what my style of liquid looks like without waves. I didn't have time for an epic session like hgitch. Just somethin quick and simple...


http://youtube.com/watch?v=twQUanCm4zA

[waveomatic]

So I guess in reference to your tracing comment, is a trace without a wave underneath it considered a wave? :wink: (we call those contours, when we trace without a wave underneath).

Thats a good question :) Well, I guess that depends, was the original way of doing that trace with a wave or not? If someone learned contours before waving that makes a strong argument for that individual. If someone was doing it with waving first, then stripped out the waving part just to follow the trace, then contours also where influenced by waving. Some might even argue its a watered down form of it, because the trails are the same, the road just isn't as paved on one side. I believe that if your not waving, but making shapes without being conscious of trying not to wave, then yeah, its not waving. In other words, you can paint stripes on a cat, you can even genetically alter one to even look like a tiger now, but its still a cat. If it was born a tiger, its a tiger. So the answer would be, was it meant to be done without a wave, or was the wave just stripped of it to look different? I think either answer can be applicable, because it depends on the individual if they learned it first with or without waving.

But yea I'm loving that both sides are dropping a lot of good history as well as good thoughts. Best part is this is probably the first time this discussion ever came up without heads rolling :razz:

Fo skillets, I too don't think this has to be heated at all. I am not trying to take a claim to anything but rather share my knowledge, it can be accepted or not. I like to prove my points of any dance, with the dance itself. I have no problems showing our similarities and letting cats decide for themselves if they are valid or not. I think that even though the west coast started the wave craze, all places got involved to bring aspects of liquid as we know them today. We can also not neglect the music and the role it played in shaping our dances, and how everyone shared one a nothers gifts. I witnessed a transition of music, dance, and their scenes, and feel luck to have been a part of it, and I THANK whoever he/she/they were that made waving such a big movement in the street dance culture, because I learned it from someone that learned it from someone, so thank you whoever that someone is, hehe.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[waveomatic]

Birdage, you get major points for dancing to Ulrich Shnauss! He's a great cat, really cool dude and a great musician/producer.

Check out my tracks...I was so stoked when Ulrich told me he really liked my sounds(I create most sounds from scratch, I don't really sample, I cross synth waves, effects, filters, etc..and sequence the drums, play each instrument, bake the cake from scratch)

http://www.myspace.com/wave0matic (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=157554559)

Nice flow bro. I like your finger position at the :10 mark. I also feel in your clip is has a tracing flow that is also done while waving. My question is, did you follow those patterns using waves first?

I really enjoyed that, we share more similarities that you guys might think, hehe.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[birdage]

Ulrich Schnauss is incredible. Nobody is touching that guy right now.

No I can't hit most of those patterns with waves b/c they're all basically based off the figure eight. Your video was the first time I ever saw somebody doing a handwave and figure eight at the same time. That was cool. I'm practicing it already.

That finger position is what liquidheads call a character or graphix. Actually I was hitting characters the whole time just twisting them around to create flow. I should of thrown in some more mime stuff. The primer theory is pretty important in liquid like this.

[waveomatic]

Nice, I always knew the figure eight with a hand wave involved somehow or another, even if only fingers were doing the waving, not the wrist part. It's nice to meet cats that use similar concepts without pure waving involved.

I use to have a lot of finger patterns to, forgot so many of them, see them a lot with tutting now a days, jigsaw has some really dope ones.

Have you seen him, Ulrich Schnauss, live? Elsewhere and myself saw him live twice here a few months ago, busted even while he played, hehe, and even chilled and talked with him about music and the dance as well. Check out this cat Manual if you already haven't, he opened up for Ulrich, really nice wavy music.

http://www.myspace.com/jonasmunk

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[jigsaw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBcElpOgYTI

[Dad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPPj6viIBmU

This is you when you were younger, don't lie.

[jigsaw]

Please stay on topic and keep your geometric-style replies to a minimum, Dad.

[funktion abm]

i want to see all the liquid heads show a clip of them dancing waves now. not doing a wave but dancing with continuous waves. i know they understand liquid but do they really understand waving enough to what is waving and what isn't? technique is one thing..the style and FLOW of waving is another.

[Dad]

ii know they understand liquid but do they really understand waving enough to what is waving and what isn't? technique is one thing..the style and FLOW of waving is another.


The same could be said for wavers. Do wavers understand liquid enough to know what is liquid and what isn't? Technique is one thing..the style and FLOW of liquid is another.

[HgItch]

Thats a good question :) Well, I guess that depends, was the original way of doing that trace with a wave or not? If someone learned contours before waving that makes a strong argument for that individual. If someone was doing it with waving first, then stripped out the waving part just to follow the trace, then contours also where influenced by waving. Some might even argue its a watered down form of it, because the trails are the same, the road just isn't as paved on one side. I believe that if your not waving, but making shapes without being conscious of trying not to wave, then yeah, its not waving. In other words, you can paint stripes on a cat, you can even genetically alter one to even look like a tiger now, but its still a cat. If it was born a tiger, its a tiger. So the answer would be, was it meant to be done without a wave, or was the wave just stripped of it to look different? I think either answer can be applicable, because it depends on the individual if they learned it first with or without waving.


Yea for myself I learned contours first from the LPC and then got into waving to increase my range of motion with my liquid

[waveomatic]

The same could be said for wavers. Do wavers understand liquid enough to know what is liquid and what isn't? Technique is one thing..the style and FLOW of liquid is another.

What you seem to forget Dad, is we are not using liquid elements like liquid is using waving elements though. We are not borrowing anything. Liquid was influenced by waving, not the other way around.

Also, can someone please explain what exactly liquid is to cats here that don't know?


Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[waveomatic]

Now HgItch, do you think that those trace patterns were done in liquid before they were done in waving? Just because someone learned it first without waves, couldn't it have been that cats just stripped away the waving, like you did in your clip, and others learned from that?

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[Dad]

What you seem to forget Dad, is we are not using liquid elements like liquid is using waving elements though. We are not borrowing anything. Liquid was influenced by waving, not the other way around.

But not only waving. This is key, and you seem to forget it over and over, conveniently enough. Why is it that the glowstickers aren't constantly trying to claim liquid as a substyle? Let it go, man.

Also, can someone please explain what exactly liquid is to cats here that don't know?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4Oj2LFgrvQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEDZdU3T8AI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TECGpBS4zG8

It is the common element of these clips, making the invisible appear visible in ways that are not physically possible.

[Graph]

"making the invisible appear visible in ways that are not physically possible"

also known as miming, regardless of if the object is real. If i created an object that doesnt' physically exist, but you can sense what I am building/creating, its miming still even though you can't go to the store and purchase that exact object.

[Dad]

"making the invisible appear visible in ways that are not physically possible"

also known as miming, regardless of if the object is real. If i created an object that doesnt' physically exist, but you can sense what I am building/creating, its miming still even though you can't go to the store and purchase that exact object.


So liquid is also a substyle of mime?

[waveomatic]

But not only waving. This is key, and you seem to forget it over and over, conveniently enough. Why is it that the glowstickers aren't constantly trying to claim liquid as a substyle? Let it go, man.

I have not forgot anything regarding this, those clips are showing wave after wave, hand flow after hand flow, trace after trace. The third clip is using miming elements. These are the best clips to show they are not waving?

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[Graph]

maybe it is with other concepts mixed in....but its just the same as how people that do botting, animation and tutting also use mime techniques.

i'm sure you can do liquid without a mime look to it, as i have seen that happen. I just know that clip doesn't look anything like most of the liquid clips i have seen.

so i think using miming techniques can be mixed in with styles, its just that clip you posted, its more miming than anythign else no liquid was involved IMO.

[funktion abm]

The same could be said for wavers. Do wavers understand liquid enough to know what is liquid and what isn't? Technique is one thing..the style and FLOW of liquid is another.


Yes I can. I was doing liquid first. Now what about you Dad?

[birdage]

This thread is falling too much into conjecture. Can you do those movements with waves.... if so it's waving and it came from waving?

As it's been said before nobody knows where liquid came from. It's been said a million times. The general theories are that it came from glowsticks, popping, or drugged out kids doing hand movements that looked cool. There's so many stories.

All the detective work in the world will not answer your questions.


So what are we left with. We are left with a new type of liquid style brought from the rave scene and placed on the internet for a bunch geeks to play with. Look at floasis. How many people post there. Hardly any. Liquid is a dead style. Only a handful of people practice it or understand it on a higher level.


Now the new hybrid liquid that is on the internet and developed directly b/c of the internet is a different beast altogether.

Let's take a person like me who lives in relative obscurity to any dance scene. When I found information on the internet I took it in. And I mean I took it all in. I didn't practice one thing at a time. One thing didn't lead to another. There was no sequence of events. I just learned everything I could as quick as I could. It was a jumbled mess.

Hooray for everyone who happened to live close enough to participate and learn from other people. Others of us lived in South Carolina, lol. Different kind of place altogether. Although I did see basic handwaves in South Carolina back in the late 90's. There were even a few dancers here that danced at our electronic music club in the 2000's. First time I ever saw a box glide. It was mind blowing. I couldn't wrap my brain around it. But I'd go two or three years in between seeing dancers. Any kind of dancers.

That is why I'm an internet dancer. I wanted to learn how to dance and I kind of have. I used whatever means necessary.

Now the point of me telling you that is, that I have no history in any kind of scene. I don't do a scene. I do my scene. I dance by myself in Colorado in the middle of nowhere. So for people like me we just explore movements and technical aspects of dance. And from my personal exploration of movement I have concluded liquid and waving are two separate things. I didn't need a history book to tell me that. I explored it myself.

So while I can see where some of this stuff is coming from, I can't help in any historical sense. I mean all I can say is I was sitting in my room by myself a few years ago and I figured out what flow was. And since I had seen people doing handwaves I wanted to do one too. But guess what, a handwave was too complicated for me to figure out on my own. So I sat in my room and just created relationships with my arms and hands. And that is how I found flow. Later I incorporated a handwave. But I couldn't go both ways with it, lol.


So I didn't wave first I didn't understand the isolations. I learned to wave later after I searched more on the internet.

So from my personal experience with having all the information right there in front of me on the internet is I learned flow before I learned how to wave.

I can't speak for anyone else. You can just ask each person individually and they'll tell you how they learned. I learn how ever I can. :)

[birdage]

Well I just missed all the miming stuff.

[waveomatic]

This thread is falling too much into conjecture. Can you do those movements with waves.... if so it's waving and it came from waving?

Not neccesairaly, its really a valid question. See, I have seen those trace patterns, the same ones tracing the figure eights many years before the rave scene. A clip was posted with the waving stripped from it, couldn't contours be a style that came about the same way? How about this, it does not have to be a yes or no, but can I get at least a maybe? hehe. See, as an individual, you knew it without waving first, but what about the majority of liquid practicioners, especially when the evidence of the clips available show waving as the driving force?

Forgive me if I am trying to be thorough in my quest for knowledge. Its how I gather information, and usually leads me on the right path

There are exceptions to every rule, I am just stating the obvious, that most clips of liquid are doing mostly waving. No hating, not saying one is better (that is subjective), but what influenced what first. Waving was getting downplayed, for years in the liquid community. I got attacked years ago for giving my take on it. I even got some cats judging my dance now, hahaha. But I will battle anyone of you cats if thats what it takes to make a point clear, if you think my questions are too thorough, wait till you see me in a circle. :) Seriously, I did not tell anyone they are terrible, like I was told, yet I don't see the level of technicality that I showed, or the gracefulness of the hand waves that create the hand flow. So lets not kid ourselves either, hehe.

I asked for some clips that did not show waving, I got one that had the waving stripped out, and another that was miming. The other ones were mostly waving.

The proof is in the pudding. I asked cats to give a thorough breakdown of what liquid is, maybe thats why many are confused. This is no way heated or hating, so please forgive me if my posts are perceived that way. Just trying to get more information, and I don't give up that easy.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[HgItch]

Hey wavo yea I am definitely in no way downplaying the importance of waving and its major contribution to liquid. This isn't the reflective.net boards 5 years ago; whatever happened is back then is back then and we're not the same group of people :p

But the reason I posted the clip of me doing only contours (or as you call it, tracing without waves) is to demonstrate the other side of influences we have had in liquid. Generally speaking, liquid was influenced by 4 major things- light emitting devices, waving, drugs, and the rave culture. We've touched a lot on waving as a major influence in this thread which makes a lot of sense because west coast rave dances were probably influenced in major ways by waving when you waving OGs took it to raves.

The other side of the dance is the light emitting devices such as glowsticks, maglights, photons, etc etc. And a lot of the contouring and flow concepts come from it and is demonstrated in a clip below.

So yea, once again, much respect to the wavers who influenced liquid. I can see why you see contours as trace-waving with the waves removed coming from your side of the culture. That's why I'm dropping a clip to show the other side of influences of lights because that was what i was trying to get at with my demo clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4K9pCXZvcI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmcSW4cqG9w

So I guess depending on perspective, i could have either done traces without waving, or freehand without glowsticks haha

[funktion abm]

i have more credibility on what liquid is than anyone that's been any rave on these forums and here's why:

i actually do liquid.

anyone reading this--please get your facts from someone who is devoted to the dance. you wouldn't cite a theologian on the theory of evolution, now would you?

hahahahaha REALLY?

[waveomatic]

You know what I like about you dawg, you really think logical, it shows from our posting. Your one of the few liquid cats that admitted it was not as easy to flow without waves as one might of though it to be. What is more true than the truth that is inside of us?

LOL, fo sho bro, I respect the LPC regardless of how I got treated on their boards. I think it was just a BIG misunderstanding, others wanted to create beef between us was the other part. But talking to Eric, he made a lot of sense and seemed very open minded. No one is asking anyone to bow down to waving, but once cats realize how important of a role it plays, it can only FURTHER their dance if they explore waving more.

I'm sure cats learned to contour first without waves, after all, liquid has been around for a while. Do you know Dave from Glowsticking.com? He is a great cat also to talk about things on the sticking end of things. My point is before all that, it was the hand flow, before light props, it was white gloves, from my experiences here.

Dude, I really am enjoying this topic, and your posts and clips, I like your open mind and feel I can learn thing about liquid from you that I do not know.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[birdage]

I kind of like the challenges people are throwing up here. Do liquid without any waves. Do a continuous wave set with flow. Maybe I'll try that tonight.

It'd be nice to see some wavers do some liquid without any waves and post a quick clip.

It's kind of like playing h-o-rs-e with dance.

Gets you out of your comfort zone.

[Dad]

Yes I can. I was doing liquid first. Now what about you Dad?


Really? Did you do it well? Regardless, I thought you thought of it as waving.


Waveo, a difficulty I find with you is that you are very liberal with your use of the word 'waving.' To you, it seems that waving is anything with continuity. If I traced a 90 degree angle, it would still be a wave to you, not because of what I am tracing, but because my joints are moving continuously. This is not what is commonly seen as waving, though. This usage is overreaching, in my opinion.

[Ge0m3tRiC]

IMO: I see waving as being any algorithm or sequence set up in joint isolations creating the illusion of movement or rippling. This def of course is minus mentality and feel.

[funktion abm]

Really? Did you do it well? Regardless, I thought you thought of it as waving.

Bro your talking to me and everyone here like your the King of liquid. hahahaahahahaahaha. Yeah I do it well. Oh wait because I didn't learn from the LPC video (respect to them for all they did) I'm not doing it "well"??? Sorry bro I was doing liquid years before that video dropped. Too bad YOU WEREN'T THERE to see the people I learned from. You may have been more open. You were going to parties in the Chicago area right? How come I never saw you until like 2002 at demf?

You didn't even answer my question in the first place. Your just always on the defensive.

[Ge0m3tRiC]

He also says tuts r a sub-style of liquid:z Maybe he was joking?

[LOGiC]

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!



[quote=Harbor Sound;13006]Wave-o, I was just curious as to what exactly you want out of all this. I read the whole thread, and I'm still kind of confused as to the idea you're trying to communicate to all of us, especially the liquid dancers. I assure you that the people that practice liquid have no intention of bending over and sucking the dick of waving just because. Honestly, that's really all I see you wanting.

I'm glad that what we do is similar, but the roads of liquid and waving diverged a long long time ago. As you are already aware, we are a culture with our own history which you, the wavers, are indeed a part of. In fact, waving is just as much a part of our history, our foundation, and our culture as are glowsticks, poi, maglights of all shapes and sizes, white gloves, the drugs, and the music. You are part of a pie. However, you are not the source of the pie or the recipe.

Let

[waveomatic]

It'd be nice to see some wavers do some liquid without any waves and post a quick clip.

I think most are trying to figure out what that is. Most liquid clips show waving, why is it so hard to see that?

[waveomatic]

this whole thing has to be the greatest mind-fuck in history.

LOL, your brain must be pretty "loose" then, if you know what I mean, hehe.

[waveomatic]

Waveo, a difficulty I find with you is that you are very liberal with your use of the word 'waving.' To you, it seems that waving is anything with continuity. If I traced a 90 degree angle, it would still be a wave to you, not because of what I am tracing, but because my joints are moving continuously. This is not what is commonly seen as waving, though. This usage is overreaching, in my opinion.Maybe because your doing traces I was doing 25 years ago, your using a hand flow like we did, my joints move continous too when I wave, is that a liquid pre requisit?

NO ONE HAS DEFINED LIQUID HERE YET, but now your gonna tell me what waving is and is not? Show me with a clip, I am still waiting for one without waving influences.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[Ge0m3tRiC]

nope no waves here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL4EPJWRzIg

If u guys want I will go grab my sock and demonstrate.

[waveomatic]

Logic, what is ignorant about this? We are discussing dance histories and electronic music cultural scenes and the dances that are practiced there. Do you have the full STORY??? Sounds like you do, and don't need to dig deeper in the art form.

First of all, who are you to tell us what the motives are? You can take my post with a grain of salt, but to question my motive??? Who are you to do that? Do you know me? Have we met? How about you try and stick to the posts and facts, not your psycho babble. Where is the hypocrisy, do you see anyone trying to take credit for it all?

this has been another "logic" service announcement.... hitting a brick wall once again.Try looking both ways before you start crossing posts, hehe, you might not keep hitting walls.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[LOGiC]

Logic, what is ignorant about this? We are discussing dance histories and electronic music cultural scenes and the dances that are practiced there. Do you have the full STORY??? Sounds like you do, and don't need to dig deeper in the art form.

First of all, who are you to tell us what the motives are? You can take my post with a grain of salt, but to question my motive??? Who are you to do that? Do you know me? Have we met? How about you try and stick to the posts and facts, not your psycho babble. Where is the hypocrisy, """"do you see anyone trying to take credit for it all?"""



yes, you.





btw Geo please don

[waveomatic]

Well your weak minded then to unclear topic like this one. If you think this is a mind f, then you really need re read this all. I am not asking for ANY credit, so what do you mean by that? Did I say I started it all? The only one showing ignorance on this topic is you.

Believing all….. that you have been spoon-fed.Do you know me? You come of so ignorant judging people you don't know. Where are you from the west coast?

I am stating FACTS, and my experiences, what is your TRIP homie?

Your post is so general, why not quote me where I say I want credit?

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

I this what you had to add to the discussion?

[LOGiC]

wavo, first off, I don

[waveomatic]

Ignorance is the absence of knowledge, we are gathering knowledge, ignorance is judging people you don't know.
You didn't mention me, but you addressed my points. You called it a mind f. I am not trying to mind f anyone, if your mind is weak to this topic, thats on you, but don't go pointing fingers unless you can back up your reason for it, or else expect a rebuttle.

You did not add anything but your take on others motives. You called it ignorant, while we quest for knowledge and truth. Why even post if you don't want to back up your judgments?

I am making the points, you call my points ignorant, but now our saying your not taking to me? Make sure then you are clear on who you address, homie.

If you were just trying to say, hey, no one should be trying to take credit, no one is. I said its a SOCIAL collaboration. Your the one trippin saying cats are being ignorant for trying to take credit, show me here who is?

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[waveomatic]

This chat room is the BOMB, haha, another better understanding through chatting with Logic. What he was saying, and why I got so passionate, is that thats what got me in my feud here not to long ago. I am the last person to want claim for anything, I teach cat to be them, not me, and I get shiet thrown at me when I question others claims, I am just sharing my knowledge, not trying to claim I started anything, hehe. Logic was on point, it was just at the wrong point.

Hope you make it to EDC, and I enjoyed our chat and looking forward to it again.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[Dad]

Bro your talking to me and everyone here like your the King of liquid. hahahaahahahaahaha. Yeah I do it well. Oh wait because I didn't learn from the LPC video (respect to them for all they did) I'm not doing it "well"??? Sorry bro I was doing liquid years before that video dropped. Too bad YOU WEREN'T THERE to see the people I learned from. You may have been more open. You were going to parties in the Chicago area right? How come I never saw you until like 2002 at demf?

You didn't even answer my question in the first place. Your just always on the defensive.


Bro, please chill, don't rape me.

Is CPR a substyle of kissing? Kissing predates CPR, people who invented CPR probably kissed before CPR, and CPR looks like making out.

[jigsaw]

You liquid cats are mad intelligent. I'm feeling the sophistication of these diff. ideas ya'll.

[Ge0m3tRiC]

Bro, please chill, don't rape me.

Is CPR a substyle of kissing? Kissing predates CPR, people who invented CPR probably kissed before CPR, and CPR looks like making out.

lol

[funktion abm]

Bro, please chill, don't rape me.

Is CPR a substyle of kissing? Kissing predates CPR, people who invented CPR probably kissed before CPR, and CPR looks like making out.

This guy can't even answer simple questions.

[Funky Robotnick]

Im getting kind of curious now, so far Wavo is the only one who has offered any explanation as to the origins of liquid, aside from a bunch of "high kids" at a rave.

So, in the effort of clearing things up, I just want to ask point blank, if thats not the truth, than what is? Its an honest question, I dont think anyone will be pissed if someone were to state another story.

Im really feeling this discussion, and so far have learned a lot. Also, diggin all the clips posted so far.

[HgItch]

I've heard a few random ones. One that seemed pretty logical to me was that kid's glowsticks at raves (which were long) faded enough to there wasn't light but they kept doing what they were doing anyways without it... and eventually they just dropped the sticks all together and they found they were able to maintain a flow still. Or kids who practiced freehand do it with dead sticks (to conserve them) and found that they could maintain flow and then stopped using them.

[HgItch]

And of course the ultimate truth is that we Chinese invented liquid thousands of years ago. Here's clips to prove it!!! :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rThVLfp9e9Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUpPTkqVPxk&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4

.... but on a more serious note, my liquid style is extremely influenced by internal/soft martial arts so when I go all out in martial arts style liquid you can see a lot of similar movements to the first clip.

[Ge0m3tRiC]

Dopest clips on here yet^

[Dad]

This guy can't even answer simple questions.


Please be mindful of your Jheri curl; it is staining the thread.

[waveomatic]

Waving and Snaking origins goes even farther back......ancient Greece...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBtAO4dYL98&feature=related


Peep out the different styles back then....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyvbZwPiWtQ&feature=related


Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[HgItch]

Origin of handflow ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30J3ct0QX1Y&feature=related

[HgItch]

.... and it only seems appropriate to drop this clip right now even though everyone's seen it :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_FG1rV2EHA

[waveomatic]

Thats dope, Midas and Elsewhere put that together, part of the parallel scene in Detours.
We have had many discussions about this exact thing.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

Oh, I cant leave without a clip......1930.............Al Rubber Legs Norman....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuu0nmK_1S8&feature=related

[funktion abm]

Please be mindful of your Jheri curl; it is staining the thread.

The only thing staining the thread is your inability to answer my questions. And the reason why you can't/won't answer questions is because you know im putting you in your little bitch ass spot.

[Dad]

The only thing staining the thread is your inability to answer my questions. And the reason why you can't/won't answer questions is because you know im putting you in your little bitch ass spot.

I have footage of you on mushrooms trying to do liquid from aforementioned DEMF 2002. You do not want this on youtube.

[funktion abm]

I have footage of you on mushrooms trying to do liquid from aforementioned DEMF 2002. You do not want this on youtube.

Oh ok. You have footage of me on mushrooms 6 years ago......hahahahahahahahaha. Who gives a fuck!!!! My homies see me all the time doing shit. I got my respect from going places. Not claiming i know all on the web....pathetic. I'm done with this kid.

[Dad]

I would. You don't look so pretty, and I don't mean your dancing.

[Konfusion]

oooo k

[Dad]

My homies see me all the time doing shit. I got my respect from going places. Not claiming i know all on the web....pathetic. I'm done with this kid.

I wouldn't be proud of being a cokehead, but good for you.

[Graph]

wow Dad....you are going for the throat on Funktion for no reason. Its getting childish with comments like that. What does his lifestyle choice have anything to do with you? Even he does coke does that put you on a high ground? You seem like you are placing yourself higher than him because he "parties." Look at the scene around you and the people around you, he isn't the only dancer that has consumed a substance and won't be the last. So whats the point in calling out someone on this stupid shit?

[Funky Robotnick]

ok, I was just chatting with Dad, and it seems his problem comes when people say liquid is a substyle of waving.

Fair enough, but consider the cultural context.

I think we all agree that liquid has its own culture, its own music, its own community. So in that context, it's NOT a substyle of waving.

Now consider the movements. Liquid (of any kind) has a lot of waving movements in it, and visa versa, waving has a lot of liquid movements in it (sometimes). That is to say, that the popping culture has its own style of liquid too, consisting of many similar and the same movements, just done by different people, to different music, and with a popping base. So, in that sense, liquid IS a substyle of waving.

Im new to this debate, but thats just my take.

I thought Wav-o-matics account was an interesting one cause it ties the two cultures together, which is more than just borrowing movements.

[Harbor Sound]

Yejoon, shut the fuck up already. The internet tough guy shit is played out to the nth degree. Your dancing sucks. Your attitude sucks. Your ideas are pretentious. And considering the way you both speak and have spoken to people in the past, I wish you would get your fucking ass beat already. You might learn a little faster that free speech does not entitle you to talk down to or degrade whomever you wish. Furthermore, your tiny dicked asian self turned its back on our dance long ago, and now, you bark some sort of proverbial word from your bedroom. Fucking please. I recall, as though it were yesterday, how you turned your nose up at the people who took you in in Philly as a student and as a friend. It's a wonderful pattern your sewing.

People here are trying to have an intelligent, respectful discussion regardless of whether we're in total disagreement. You see nothing more than an opportunity to undermine the efforts that not one but two communities are making to understand each other and educate people across the board. This is a chance to bridge cultural boundaries and grow, make new friends even. Yet the only real thing standing in the way of it all is a small asian dick photoshopped to look really big on the internet. So, get off the fucking internet, give Op7 a high-five, and you can go smoke poles together. I genuinely feel sorry for your son.

[jigsaw]

Lol

[Dad]

Yejoon, shut the fuck up already. The internet tough guy shit is played out to the nth degree. Your dancing sucks. Your attitude sucks. Your ideas are pretentious. And considering the way you both speak and have spoken to people in the past, I wish you would get your fucking ass beat already. You might learn a little faster that free speech does not entitle you to talk down to or degrade whomever you wish. Furthermore, your tiny dicked asian self turned its back on our dance long ago, and now, you bark some sort of proverbial word from your bedroom. Fucking please. I recall, as though it were yesterday, how you turned your nose up at the people who took you in in Philly as a student and as a friend. It's a wonderful pattern your sewing.

People here are trying to have an intelligent, respectful discussion regardless of whether we're in total disagreement. You see nothing more than an opportunity to undermine the efforts that not one but two communities are making to understand each other and educate people across the board. This is a chance to bridge cultural boundaries and grow, make new friends even. Yet the only real thing standing in the way of it all is a small asian dick photoshopped to look really big on the internet. So, get off the fucking internet, give Op7 a high-five, and you can go smoke poles together. I genuinely feel sorry for your son.

Hahahaa, awesome.

[funktion abm]

I wouldn't be proud of being a cokehead, but good for you.

See now your just making shit up....it's funny though. Poor Little Dad can't admit I put him in his place. Keep dancing your gonna need it.

[Ge0m3tRiC]

Joon seriously brah, when we started debating I took it as we were just playing around. But threatening to blackmail people and also making hypocritical remarks just really shows your inside age too well. Like Drew said, how can u threaten Funktion with party footage when we are a debating a style that evolved in the trembling hands of e-tards and flowed around the stuttery depths of k-holes? Pleeeeeeeease buddy! Either say something logical like you were earlier or just quite while u are behind because u cant dig ur way out:T I mean u criticize 4chan for being inter web scum, then u go and threaten to blackmail someone over a dance. LOLERPALOOZA BUDDY! The hypocrisy has never been so thick! Can't believe this shit isn't butter. I may troll a bit at times, but the theorem equations I wrote are actual real equations that can be applied to the debate, however like a small child in school who does not understand the curriculum u simply denounce it and resort to childish antics like: "I fucked your mom." Having a kid also does not mean u are on some higher ground then the rest of us, It simply tells me that If u are in ur early 20's as I suspect, u lack good planning skills and tend to rush into things with ur emotions, which would explain a lot in this debate. Well I guess I am coming off a bit more "Dad" then you are now, so anyways hommie, I wish u the best of luck and hope you realize WCP does not provide the type of anonymity that you seem to think it does. We all know each other one way or another on here. I mean I guess there is not much more to say here. I think the majority of this board can see now who is throwing a temper tantrum and who is actually trying to defend something they care about.

/Joon

[Dad]

Yeah, I let it get out of hand. Regardless of whether you accept it or not, I owe you a sincere apology, particularly Funktion. Sorry guys. I wasn't sure why I was doing it, except that it was a thrill to push buttons. That was childish of me. I am not sure what got into me. I haven't been in a flame war for years. I guess I just missed the zingers, but it got too personal. You all sound pretty spot on with your explanations, with a few inaccuracies here or there, but it is not worth clearing those up right now.

I may troll a bit at times, but the theorem equations I wrote are actual real equations that can be applied to the debate, however like a small child in school who does not understand the curriculum u simply denounce it and resort to childish antics like: "I fucked your mom."

Actually, because of the way you presented your equations, I thought you were mocking the "pretensious pseudo-intellectual" in my posts. I thought you were using the Mobius strip as extra fodder, because I wasn't aware that other people saw that in liquid (http://floasis.net/smf/index.php?topic=288.0). You can see why I thought that was a troll post, no?

To put the discussion back on track, I think that your mathematical interpretations and comparisons of liquid and waving are as 100% objectively correct as anyone is going to get in this thread, conceptually speaking.

[HgItch]

:) I'm sure everyone here's mature enough to let go of something as stupid as an internet flame war. It is, after all, just the internet :p

.... group hug? :D

[jigsaw]

i didn't like the response to my clip, saying that was me when i was younger...
i'm holding a grudge for sure.

*this was a joke btw

[LPEric]

Whats up yall,

Man i wish this argument would end but the only way it will would be to do it on the floor. This whole argument is mute for liquiders until somone steps up and proves it so.

Thats the truth...

Joon (dad) your blaintent lack of respect for Funkiton is realy sad man. What the hell happened to you?

Good job,


Funktion, west coast crew..from me its all love.


Eric

LPC

[Tiny]

All ya mofos stop this shizaa , There is no substyle never been never will ,,,,,,o no how can i explain to ya ..........simple did you ever see Wavo back in z days with a pair of Glowsticks jumping around from side to side skreaming and raving doing figure 8s all night to 1000 bpms Techno ....................you could tray to wave all night faster Wavo but you aint going to chach up with a Raver like me you Mofo ha ha ha ha ha ..........this is jocke Wavo you ma man. More knoledge coming............lets be open minded and stop funkinkstyles each ohter if you know what i mean.....

[Ge0m3tRiC]

Yeah, I let it get out of hand. Regardless of whether you accept it or not, I owe you a sincere apology, particularly Funktion. Sorry guys. I wasn't sure why I was doing it, except that it was a thrill to push buttons. That was childish of me. I am not sure what got into me. I haven't been in a flame war for years. I guess I just missed the zingers, but it got too personal. You all sound pretty spot on with your explanations, with a few inaccuracies here or there, but it is not worth clearing those up right now.



Actually, because of the way you presented your equations, I thought you were mocking the "pretensious pseudo-intellectual" in my posts. I thought you were using the Mobius strip as extra fodder, because I wasn't aware that other people saw that in liquid (http://floasis.net/smf/index.php?topic=288.0). You can see why I thought that was a troll post, no?

To put the discussion back on track, I think that your mathematical interpretations and comparisons of liquid and waving are as 100% objectively correct as anyone is going to get in this thread, conceptually speaking.

Dude I totally understand where you are coming from! I did not mean to come off in a mocking manner and for that I apologize! I really was trying to point out the sim's and dif's of the two styles and I still believe that although both share illusionary techs, they both have totally different mentalities to them.

[waveomatic]

.you could tray to wave all night faster Wavo but you aint going to chach up with a Raver like me you Mofo ha ha ha ha ha ..........this is jocke Wavo you ma man. More knoledge coming............lets be open minded and stop funkinkstyles each ohter if you know what i mean.....

LOL, whats up TINY! Fo sho homie, I am feeling this discussion big time, really glad you and Eric (whats up E!) joined in as well. How are you homies? You guys should come to EDC if you can, a lot of us getting down for like 12 hours all day and night, circles all over the place. My waves have gotten faster, Tiny, you know how us Eastern Europeans are, hehe.

Dad, good looking out on the apology, and I saw that in the chat you said you have nothing against Funktion. Not too long ago I was trying to have a discussion but I kept getting attacked personally instead. I did not get an apology, but actually comments laced with threats to my home. So by apologizing, and knowing you were in the wrong, is really cool bro. Funktion is one of the BEST wavers in the newer generations, and even beyond these generation gaps. I have seen him do liquid at a level VERY few I have seen able to achieve, in fluidity, in gracefulness, in technique, at least the wave elements of it all, there is no doubt about that. So I commend you for apologizing, real men do that when they are wrong brotha, and having a child does not favor the side on any scale of manhood, not when babies are having babies.

Clowning someone and degrading someones character with personal insults are two BIG different ways of using humor. One is funny, one might get someone hurt, physically or emotionally, hehe. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/aktion/action-smiley-024.gif

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

PS Waves are all your guys DADDY!!!!! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/aktion/action-smiley-065.gif

[birdage]

Well if the dancerazzi are finished reporting we can go on minus the gossip...


Okay as I said before I can't comment on the historical facts of either liquid or waving. So all my information is gathered from my personal experimentation. With that in mind I can draw a technical distinction between liquid and waving.

Now people wanted definitions. This how I would describe each dance.

Waving- A dance where the successive isolation of joints creates a wave like pattern.

Liquid- A dance where one hand usually follows the other in a speed controlled fashion creating the illusion of flow.

I put up a clip where I did liquid without doing any successive isolation of my joints and still created flow. Therefore, I wasn't waving I was doing liquid.

But I also can see if you expand the definition of waving to include imaginary waves like waving outside your body or tracing your arm with the liquid concept of a contour, which could be considered tracing an imaginary wave, I could see how waving could have more of a stake in liquid besides just the handwave.

By the same reasoning (expanding the definition) liquid could claim a stake in waving. Historical facts negate that proposition,though. Waving was here before liquid. That's a fact.

The problem I have is why would people put a restriction on their waving? Why just do a handwave and no other waves? Could it be that the end point was to create a different illusion than waving? My stance is liquiders are trying to achieve a different illusion than wavers. At times wavers and liquiders illusions cross paths (see continuous waving) but on a whole the illusions are completely different.

No if I can get a logical rebuttal from a popper minus the over-worn historical waving was here first that would be nice. Lets talk technically not historically. I think we've argued about the historical stuff enough at this point.

Holla...

[birdage]

Sorry one last thing- the point of my argument is that liquiders and wavers are trying to achieve two totally different illusions.

[waveomatic]

The problem I have is why would people put a restriction on their waving? Why just do a handwave and no other waves? Could it be that the end point was to create a different illusion than waving? My stance is liquiders are trying to achieve a different illusion than wavers. At times wavers and liquiders illusions cross paths (see continuous waving) but on a whole the illusions are completely different.
Great question, some of us are far from restrictive...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU4o_2wvUyM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIDakyDjWSg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA5-bUWIGpI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEOFRC35cB8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDJ-__8qxRY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJT5FY-KGRQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQd1f8p_6i8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FhK1a6unKM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7TL1wAkg7A

Here in the LA, a lot of us really try not to restrict much.....


Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[resleeve]

I also can see if you expand the definition of waving to include imaginary waves like waving outside your body or tracing your arm with the liquid concept of a contour, which could be considered tracing an imaginary wave, I could see how waving could have more of a stake in liquid besides just the handwave.

By the same reasoning (expanding the definition) liquid could claim a stake in waving.

Thats what I've been saying this whole time!
________
red head Cams (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/webcam/redhead-girls/)

[waveomatic]

By the same reasoning (expanding the definition) liquid could claim a stake in waving.

Sure it could, if it those physical movement that are done in both styles were done in liquid first. Problem is, that waving was around before that, and unless you time traveled back to the future and started to do hand flows and traces before wavers did, then no doubt, it would be a great argument, hehe.

I am only looking at the waving aspect of liquid here, not the LED's or glowsticks, I mean the actual waving elements.

Here is how liquid influenced waving in my opinion. Many poppers in the scene today got introduced to it from the rave scene, they most likely started doing liquid of some sorts before exploring more on poppin/funkstyles/poplockin. So the influence in the newer generation is undeniable, as it is in how the older generations waves play a part in liquid today, no matter how they got there.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[Dad]

Joon (dad) your blaintent lack of respect for Funkiton is realy sad man. What the hell happened to you?



PM me if this was a sincere question and you really want to know. That goes for anyone else.

[Dad]

Dude I totally understand where you are coming from! I did not mean to come off in a mocking manner and for that I apologize! I really was trying to point out the sim's and dif's of the two styles and I still believe that although both share illusionary techs, they both have totally different mentalities to them.

Oh, that is cool then, nothing to apologize for. Forget about the silly flame post responses that I made. My dad is a mathematician, and I used to be a math major. I totally get what you were trying to say with those equations. Actually, what tipped me off that you might be serious was that they actually made sense. They were posted in what I thought was a typical non-serious manner, and given that I am usually flamed for trying to apply academic concepts to dance, I just assumed that you were trolling. Let's hug. :)

How much do you know about math? My topology is very rusty, so I've been wanting someone to help explain a few things to me (ie, chirality, non-euclidean geometry, is it possible to apply these ideas to liquid or vice versa?)

[Dad]

Sure it could, if it those physical movement that are done in both styles were done in liquid first. Problem is, that waving was around before that, and unless you time traveled back to the future and started to do hand flows and traces before wavers did, then no doubt, it would be a great argument, hehe.

Why should when something happened determine how things should be categorized? This is not the case for most other things.

[HgItch]

Hey wavo... I was thinking today and I think I realized something I should have posted about in terms of at least some of us liquidheads in the community which could have brought confusion to this debate due to our own dance; and probably why the attitudes are different that that of the popping community.

I know for myself (and many others) we didn't start off deciding that liquid was the style of dance we wanted to perfect. A good number of us started off as simply dancers and then found liquid to be a style we were attracted to. Perhaps that is why many of us when we talk about liquid we take the 'styles/academic' approach rather than 'historical/location' approach.

Simply put, we were plain dancers searching for styles to learn. There was a time not too long ago when people first come to the liquid community they first thing they were told is actually NOT how to do a a handflow, but told to go and learn to 'groove to to the music' by taking steps to the beat, moving a random body part to a part of a song, etc.

And perhaps that is why you will notice in many of our dances, there are a bunch of random approaches in style mixing (of course the most apparent is waving, because many of us learned to wave along with liquid at about the same time). And you'll see house dancing footwork combined with a flow or adding digitz elements; you'll also see many liquidheads us tutting/tutting influences in many of their dances because those were also see at raves, etc.

Because at the root of all things, liquid is simply a party dance. And at parties anything goes :p

Whereas if you look at the popping community due to your progression and certain influences you've had along the way, you have a much more structured community and many more known OGs. These OGs established many historical foundations, set out to share what they believed to be facts and ideas on popping. You have younger katz who specifically say to themselves "I want to be a popper." And for a time certain rules were laid down by OGs who judged at competitions, and being a competitive culture rather than a party culture people tended to play more by the rules etc etc.

Whereas our 'OGs' are simply guys who loved to have fun and many simply disappeared as
the party scene in the States disappeared. We didn't take time to refine our dancing because we weren't a competitive culture and simply did our dancing at parties. In our history we didn't really battle and didn't have the mentality to do stuff that the popping community has been a part of.

All this to simply say that when we debate, we should be mindful of how one another may think and read posts. As I read these posts over again, I came to a really weird realization:

I think we are reading each other's posts from a deep perspective from our own end and a shallow perspective to the other end. And both sides are doing this.

To explain further, let's take us liquidheads. We are seeing liquid from both a cultural and historical and technical aspect, with a partydance/liquid cuture MENTALITY. And we are dissecting waving only from a technical and historical viewpoint, omitting the culture and mentality of poppers.

On the other side, simply reverse-substitute the words: The poppers are seeing waving from both a cultural and historical and technical aspect, with a popping culture MENTALITY. And we are dissecting liquid only from a technical and historical viewpoint, omitting the culture and mentality of liquidheads.

--------------

But yea just a random observation I think would be helpful if we continue this debate :p

Peace. Love. Unity. Respect. PLUR.


**Edit: Maybe an extreme and oversimplified way to put our mentalities is that liquidheads are looking for gaining acceptance for liquid as a separate style and the poppers are looking to gain respect for the contribution waving has to liquid. Maybe that's why we keep missing each other as we debate.

Feel free, of course, to correct me if I'm wrong about this.

[Dad]

But yea just a random observation I think would be helpful if we continue this debate :p

Peace. Love. Unity. Respect. PLUR.

**Edit: Maybe an extreme and oversimplified way to put our mentalities is that liquidheads are looking for gaining acceptance for liquid as a separate style and the poppers are looking to gain respect for the contribution waving has to liquid. Maybe that's why we keep missing each other as we debate.

Feel free, of course, to correct me if I'm wrong about this.

That was quite a post. I don't see how anyone can continue to debate after that, only tell personal anecdotal stories and share personal approaches.

[kaib0rg]

Sure it could, if it those physical movement that are done in both styles were done in liquid first. Problem is, that waving was around before that, and unless you time traveled back to the future and started to do hand flows and traces before wavers did, then no doubt, it would be a great argument, hehe.

I am only looking at the waving aspect of liquid here, not the LED's or glowsticks, I mean the actual waving elements.

Here is how liquid influenced waving in my opinion. Many poppers in the scene today got introduced to it from the rave scene, they most likely started doing liquid of some sorts before exploring more on poppin/funkstyles/poplockin. So the influence in the newer generation is undeniable, as it is in how the older generations waves play a part in liquid today, no matter how they got there.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

if a ballerina did an armwave 200 years ago it would still be waving. Dances are defined and categorized by their characteristics, not by who did them when. If a waver did liquid 20 years ago it's still liquid. The dancer does not define the dance, the movement defines it.

[HgItch]

lol kai you just opened a whole new can of worms there hahaha

Let's say you do a step where your right leg crosses over your left and you shift all your weight to that foot, **edit**lifting up your left foot.

Now did you just bboy, house, tap, jazz, or use a West African dance style?

I would say one major idea that must be considered is that it depends on context. Context of not only the entire piece movements or freestyle movements in which that one step is performed. Did the dancer do other movements before and after that one step contextualize that one step into a certain style of dance? What is the larger frame of the dance that the movement occurs in? I've seen ballerinas do armwaves before... it might have been a rendition of a Swan Lake I saw... but anyways it doesn't mean they were doing ballet and then suddenly popping and back to ballet again... they were doing ballet.

All this to say that it's not necessarily that a single movement defines a dance as the way you put it (unless I misinterpreted you)

[kaib0rg]

lol kai you just opened a whole new can of worms there hahaha

Let's say you do a step where your right leg crosses over your left and you shift all your weight to that foot, **edit**lifting up your left foot.

Now did you just bboy, house, tap, jazz, or use a West African dance style?

I would say one major idea that must be considered is that it depends on context. Context of not only the entire piece movements or freestyle movements in which that one step is performed. Did the dancer do other movements before and after that one step contextualize that one step into a certain style of dance? What is the larger frame of the dance that the movement occurs in? I've seen ballerinas do armwaves before... it might have been a rendition of a Swan Lake I saw... but anyways it doesn't mean they were doing ballet and then suddenly popping and back to ballet again... they were doing ballet.

All this to say that it's not necessarily that a single movement defines a dance as the way you put it (unless I misinterpreted you)

i'm going to elaborate in this in the clip i told you im making. it's one of the ideas i wanted to talk more about, but with physical demonstrations.

[waveomatic]

Hey wavo... I was thinking today and I think I realized something I should have posted about in terms of at least some of us liquidheads in the community which could have brought confusion to this debate due to our own dance; and probably why the attitudes are different that that of the popping community.

I know for myself (and many others) we didn't start off deciding that liquid was the style of dance we wanted to perfect. A good number of us started off as simply dancers and then found liquid to be a style we were attracted to. Perhaps that is why many of us when we talk about liquid we take the 'styles/academic' approach rather than 'historical/location' approach.

Simply put, we were plain dancers searching for styles to learn. There was a time not too long ago when people first come to the liquid community they first thing they were told is actually NOT how to do a a handflow, but told to go and learn to 'groove to to the music' by taking steps to the beat, moving a random body part to a part of a song, etc.

And perhaps that is why you will notice in many of our dances, there are a bunch of random approaches in style mixing (of course the most apparent is waving, because many of us learned to wave along with liquid at about the same time). And you'll see house dancing footwork combined with a flow or adding digitz elements; you'll also see many liquidheads us tutting/tutting influences in many of their dances because those were also see at raves, etc.

Because at the root of all things, liquid is simply a party dance. And at parties anything goes :razz:

Agree and totally understandable. But sometimes this mentality is similar to other thats like saying you discovered America, and forget about the people that were already living there, but YOU discovered America, not simply just landed on her.

Problem is, I seem to get this attitude from cats that waving is SO different, but its mostly all in "theory", not in its practice or else I wouldn't even be debating it.

We are talking about waving in relationship to electronic music, we can trace it back to thousands of years really, but we are not looking at that big a window,

I use to wave, when poppin was "played out", I use to wave in the rave scene, not many were at the time, just cats that use to pop. 15 years later, cats are waving and calling what they do liquid, even calling what I do liquid, hehe.

If you notice I am not talking about poppin influencing glow strings, LEDs, etc, but the HAND FLOW, TRACES, and other WAVES are undeniable to me.

I offered even the transition on how it happened here, no one has offered their transition, either they don't know or not sure. I am sure. I lived it. I experienced it.

Lets stay focus on waving in our party scenes, not waving in ancient Greece or Africa, hehe

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[shiftedShapes]

Problem is, I seem to get this attitude from cats that waving is SO different, but its mostly all in "theory", not in its practice or else I wouldn't even be debating it.Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

HELLO WCP!

Wave-O it's not just in theory it's a big difference in practice. That major difference is the FIGURE 8:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zf4_0KyT7gk

what you do at 4:20 in this clip is not what liquiders are talking about when they say figure 8:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEYdnWW1bTI

Liquiders took the figure 8 and used it as a means to create an illusion of a spinning looping trail with their hands, skywalker is a great example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQd1f8p_6i8

he uses the figure 8 quite a bit, sometimes with the center of the 8 around their wrists and sometimes with the center eleswhere to bring the 8 into his body, or to wrap his body around the 8.

Now wavers may have done a figure 8 at some point before liquid was born (so did traditional chinese dancers it is actually a foundational movement for some of their dances) but it was not their central technique. Liquiders build their style around the 8 and use it to create a looping continuous path. This was the distinction but it is shrinking away now that liquiders are learning to wave and wavers are keeping a continuous wave and incorporating the figure 8.

-sS

[HgItch]

yea that's what I was trying to get at with the second part of the rigidhand techniques I was demonstrating with my clip. Here's a brief instructional on what we call the figure 8.

/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq1YE6OSRMc

And starting at a 4:30ish of my clip is when I go into a demonstration of it (even though I suck at it but the basic idea is there ;-p)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmcSW4cqG9w

[HgItch]

but of course, the figure 8 is only a piece of the puzzle, like handflow and armflow are different pieces. The pieces themselves don't create a completely picture of what liquid is today.

[shiftedShapes]

but of course, the figure 8 is only a piece of the puzzle, like handflow and armflow are different pieces. The pieces themselves don't create a completely picture of what liquid is today.


That's true now but I think when liquid was starting out and was more primitive the figure 8 was very central. Since then liquid and waving have converged which makes it harder to see the differences.

[HgItch]

That's true now but I think when liquid was starting out and was more primitive the figure 8 was very central. Since then liquid and waving have converged which makes it harder to see the differences.

Yea I agree

[HgItch]

......... and I just wanted to post this clip in here for fun.

If I needed an excuse to post this.... there's a "continuous leg wave" at 2:20.

Or if I'm supposed to be debating with this post, I would say something like... are they doing ballet or bboying or waving or everything... or does it really matter because this clip is freakin dope hahahha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOqxSaW05p4

[Ge0m3tRiC]

Oh, that is cool then, nothing to apologize for. Forget about the silly flame post responses that I made. My dad is a mathematician, and I used to be a math major. I totally get what you were trying to say with those equations. Actually, what tipped me off that you might be serious was that they actually made sense. They were posted in what I thought was a typical non-serious manner, and given that I am usually flamed for trying to apply academic concepts to dance, I just assumed that you were trolling. Let's hug. :)

How much do you know about math? My topology is very rusty, so I've been wanting someone to help explain a few things to me (ie, chirality, non-euclidean geometry, is it possible to apply these ideas to liquid or vice versa?)

Yo Joon! Well as far as applying math to dance really anything that creates a path through xyz space can be summed up in equations. How far did you get in math? I am very rusty too because I spent 3 1^2 years in the marines doing stuff that had nothing to do with math. I have started to get into it again due to the fact that I work with programs like maya and 3ds_max now. Being a tutter equations are just easier for me to explain things sometimes XD. I got to run, I will drop in here sometime this weekend! l8

[LOBO]

Great discussion yall, I learned alot!

Since we postin clips as well I'd just want to add one to the list: Dont forget about this beast! Taking waving to another level

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=005FZ_Umno0

[HgItch]

yessss I luv Bishop's stuff so smoooth

[waveomatic]

Just got back from another type of waving, surfing, hehe. I will read all this fo sho, Shifted, where is Skywalker doing that figure eight you say? He is mostly just waving and tracing.

[waveomatic]

That's true now but I think when liquid was starting out and was more primitive the figure 8 was very central. Since then liquid and waving have converged which makes it harder to see the differences

Ok, so while we were hand flowing, tracing, waving in the early rave scene here in LA, cats elsewhere were still not doing that, they were using sticks, and the hand flow that is used today is a byproduct of the glowsticks, not waving. Am I correct?

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[poppincamo]

Were do traces fall under waving er tuttin? I really don't tend 2 recognize liquid as a style, not speakin hostily i just think it all waves. I mean what is it really? Ur still givin the illusion of waves with ur body rit?

[Tiny]

Well we actually were doing this first .....Raving ,Stomp dance, battle stomp or mashing (hardcore techno), Skip ,kandy walk ,Jungalist style dance ,runing man ,Nordick track ,Goa trance dance ,Housesteping ,Glowsticks ,Lightsticks ,Strings with glowsticks ,Lasers ,Photons, lots of figure 8s ...figure 8 over ya back ,front figure 8 ,spins figure 8 ,brake donw figure8 ,half figure8s, back figure 8s ,Mime Liquid ,fix point liquid ,geometrick shapes liquid ,string technique ,dancing with whather botlles and manipulating objects in space,Jugalling glowsticks.......all this is OG shizza called Raveing (LIQUID).....knobody i mean knowbody is doing this in the poppin schene Skywalker , Wavo ,Elsewere ,Bay area ,Ebs ,and so on Lets ghet it straight people this is East Coast History ghet to Know it like we learned and still learn Weast Coast History ....................................keep searching.

[waveomatic]

Well we actually were doing this first .....Raving ,Stomp dance, battle stomp or mashing (hardcore techno), Skip ,kandy walk ,Jungalist style dance ,runing man ,Nordick track ,Goa trance dance ,Housesteping ,Glowsticks ,Lightsticks ,Strings with glowsticks ,Lasers ,Photons, lots of figure 8s ...figure 8 over ya back ,front figure 8 ,spins figure 8 ,brake donw figure8 ,half figure8s, back figure 8s ,Mime Liquid ,fix point liquid ,geometrick shapes liquid ,string technique ,dancing with whather botlles and manipulating objects in space,Jugalling glowsticks.......all this is OG shizza called Raveing (LIQUID).....knobody i mean knowbody is doing this in the poppin schene Skywalker , Wavo ,Elsewere ,Bay area ,Ebs ,and so on Lets ghet it straight people this is East Coast History ghet to Know it like we learned and still learn Weast Coast History ....................................keep searching.


Fo sho Tiny, we have seen our share of rave dances here too, many came AFTER we took our waves there. Since I am searching, can you post some clips of all those styles you mentioned?

See, the questions I have is not that there was other dances in liquid other than waving, I am not arguing that. I am saying that 90 percent of the clips I see and the cats at raves that say they are doing liquid, are not doing the dances you mentioned, but are mostly using some type of wave element. If no one is doing in the poppin scene what you say, then how come in the rave liquid scene most are waving and not doing the foundation dances you speak of?

Great convo!

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[HgItch]

Hehe now that East and West OGs are in the house... I have a theory I would suggest to you guys and I was wondering if you guys think it's plausible. I wasn't there when the rave scene first started which is why I ask you guys.

Is it possible that liquid on the East and West coast actually STARTED differently, and then converged? For example.

Could it have been that liquid in the EAST when raves started with figure 8s, and armflow from things like glowsticks, maglights, LEDs etc

And then liquid in the WEST coast when raves started started with waves in handflow and armflow from white gloves, etc

AND THEN when people between the coasts travelled to different raves, the two styles of liquid converged to what we know it as today?

Just an idea that popped into my head and I was wondering how valid you guys think this is.

[waveomatic]

I think it could be very valid!

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[poppincamo]

sweet info...liquid...blub..blub

[birdage]

Where have you seen these movements before? Is this waving? I think not.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vxt9ecsmoTI

[Dad]

Yo Joon! Well as far as applying math to dance really anything that creates a path through xyz space can be summed up in equations. How far did you get in math? I am very rusty too because I spent 3 1^2 years in the marines doing stuff that had nothing to do with math. I have started to get into it again due to the fact that I work with programs like maya and 3ds_max now. Being a tutter equations are just easier for me to explain things sometimes XD. I got to run, I will drop in here sometime this weekend! l8

I started having trouble at the higher level math courses, like discrete math, and then I failed altogether when it came to graph theory. That takes a ridiculously different sort of thinking altogether, and I couldn't cut it there, so I had to change majors. I left with a new respect for people who could do that stuff, though.

It seems that a lot of the mappings for liquid are based on single points tracing out a line in a typical 3-D Euclidean space. The resulting paths end up having a chiral property, and I'm assuming this is due to the left hand vs. right hand. I've wondered if liquid could look different if one approaches it as lines (arms, torso, legs, etc.) tracing out planes, or even 3-D objects (our bodies are 3-D after all) tracing out 3-D non-Euclidean paths. A sphere (like your head) is only 2-D in a hyperbolic geometry, if I remember correctly.

This is a bit too high level and not intuitive enough for me to apply, unfortunately. For the time being, I've been trying to find more examples of 3-D chiral figures.

[Ge0m3tRiC]

Excuse me if I get the term wrong but aren't "contours" in liquid basic linear flows that work in [x,y]? I know something I will do in tutting to screw with peoples heads is I will pick a tutting concept, usually about 4 to even 20 different positions linked with different transitioning theories. The only catch is I will stick to positions that follow a planned alignment or common transitional element. From there I will toy in that series of concepts, then switch to a new concept. The switching element when transitioned bluntly creates a dimensional light switch type effect like the laws that govern the tuts have suddenly changed. Do you guys do that with liquid ever? I often times try to offset the symmetry of my tut patterns to combat the fact that hand dancing does indeed create chiral patterns. Wow, I honestly would say I am seeing a lot of similarities between boxing and liquid.

[waveomatic]

Actually birdage, a small bit of it, yes, like when he traced it up with a wave at 1:58, and even before he did implement some traces. But yeah, I can tell most of it was not wave influenced, especially the part were he was playing them like a violin.

Peace and much Respect
Wave~O

[poppincamo]

Yall ninjas are smart man mad propz to all yall just 4 being so f-in smart Dads talkin bout hypebolic geometry and shnit i dont even know the first thing bout that stuff, and yall say your mathmatic konwledge actually helps ur dance skillz. Geo soundin Like tut master einstein, yall foolz are cold man propz agin.

[craigvulcan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bknvwg4kYvE

[Tiny]

The problem is we reallly dont know each other East ,,,Weast coast as long as we are open minded and licen to everybody story we will came to a conclusion ....i have no problem if i ever was inluenced by waving in the LIquid dance props to ya(time will tell and diging in ,,,be open minded) ......rave started in the weast coast first history is history i kant change it ,,i could only learn from it .................................................. .................................we alll seeen what a fuck up the EBS bogooolos did whith their brain washing and money making machnie .Is LIQUID A BOOG STYLE TO ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha......come on yooooooo.

[TETRIS]

This is one of the dopest threads ive read in a while.:cool:

[TETRIS]

this is the way I see it:

Tutting > boxes > finger tuts

Waving > liquid > digits

The argument can be similar to :
"the box style has no hieroglyphic poses so its not tuts. It has no influence from tuts either."

Is that right?

The 90s party scene w electronic music pushed both styles to morph and become more detailed and intricate. New style of music = new feel = new ideas. Yes it was influenced w glowsticks I don't doubt that but its clearly obvious the concept of fluid illusion aka waving is one of the major influences.

I'm not discrediting the identity of liquid I'm just recognizing its roots.

Just like how the robotic dance movement (now known as popping) started in the bayarea and it morphed w boogaloo sams influence, it was not a brand new dance style it was just the evolution of the dance. My 2 cents...

[HgItch]

this is the way I see it:

The 90s party scene w electronic music pushed both styles to morph and become more detailed and intricate. New style of music = new feel = new ideas. Yes it was influenced w glowsticks I don't doubt that but its clearly obvious the concept of fluid illusion aka waving is one of the major influences.

I'm not discrediting the identity of liquid I'm just recognizing its roots.


This I could agree with