HTWWW '09 Locking battle and thoughts

[Sutefeni]

First I wanna say thank you for having big events such as this! It's great to meet people from other parts of the country and world and it's always fun to get down with them. It was my first time entering a really big event and I had a lotta fun!

That being said, I really enjoyed watching the locking battles at HTWWW, but I couldn't help feeling a bit discouraged after the whole competition was over.
Being a newcomer to the locking scene (off and on for a year), I thought that locking was not only about the foundations but about entertaining the crowd as well with musicality and creativity. However, some of the contestants who seemed to bring ALL this to the table did NOT advance. And the ones who JUST brought the foundations went on. It really made me question the judges and myself -- am I wrong to like the people who were entertaining?

I know that there is the major thread talking about how we could advance locking here in North America.
But I wonder how it could be advanced when things like this are happening? When people are coming here from all over the world only to be shot down because they don't emulate the old 70s basic style of locking (or look like they were stuck in the 70s).

I mean no disrespect towards the OGs or the dancers who advanced (they had the skills and foundations down). I just want to know why things happened the way they did. The audience knew and felt who should go on...and even the contestants. And who knows, maybe even the judges.

So how does locking grow when newbies like me see that locking should only be a certain way. And if I were to bring in a different style/character, I wouldn't make it at all?
Who is qualified to be judging? What can we as a community do for it?

Anyways, just my thoughts...

[Shockwave32]

Honestly, you are right for feeling the way you do. Just know who won in your heart and except the differences of opinion for what it is. Don't take it personal and love the dance you know. I felt Tiffany should have moved on without a doubt, I thought Tsuyoshi and Tsuto should have had it into the battle rounds. I actually thought alot of things from this weekend, but I feel I understand why things went down the way it did and I move on, cause the ones that watched really know what the business is

[inventfmc]

Agreed.

Come to the Bay. Hahahaha.

LA has too much politics forreal.

Like shockwave said, know the truth in your heart, don't question that because someone "respected" said different.

[MikeyP_Groovmekanex]

If you are dancing to impress OG's, you're dancing for the wrong reason.

do what makes you happy, dance how you dance. Just cause a few old men didn't feel you that day dosn't mean you (or they) are doing something wrong.

It's YOUR dance, remember...not theirs.

[buddha stretch]

Who were the judges?

[inventfmc]

Loose Caboose, Anthony Thomas and Greg Campbellock Jr.

[buddha stretch]

Loose Caboose, Anthony Thomas and Greg Campbellock Jr.
WOW...so who didn't advance that should have?how many contestants??

[Boogiewalker]

WOW...so who didn't advance that should have?how many contestants??

Hey Buddha. Total number of entrants was low this year--maybe about 23-25 max. People who should have advanced (from prelims) that didn't: Tsuyoshi, Akiko, Tsuto and also Nobby from Jam Crew (Osaka). Also, personally, in the showdown between Lil' B (DS players) and Baby L (Lydia from Toronto), I would have picked Lil'B (better energy, better dancing, more entertaining). Also, most people I talked to were feeling that Win should not have advanced over Tiffany, but there was not total agreement on that point from all sides...

However, I think the more disturbing thing was just the "pattern" of people who "made it through". Main problem: the final four was Win (Taiwan), Boog Tom (Korea), Lydia, and FLOMASTER. Given the identities of two of the three judges, there's a huge POLITICAL problem here! Win, Lydia and FLO are all students of Greg AND are pretty close to Loose Caboose (not completely sure about Boog Tom, but he locks a lot like Suga Pop, so basically, he's also Greg's student via proxy...)

It was another text-book case (in my opinion) of judges picking their students/homies to advance.

As much as I love Flo and his funky self, there was ABSOLUTELY NO REASON FOR HIM TO BE IN THAT COMPETITION (well, other than the $1000.00 cash prize...) Seriously: he already has won a HTWWW (either the 1st or 2nd one, I believe) and has JUDGED a HTWWW (last year, along with (surprise!) Loose Caboose and Sundance...) He's already recognized around the world as a dope-ass locker with more than enough skills to pay the bills. Really, as soon as Kaistar told me on Saturday before I got to the jam that Flo was entering, I said to myself, "well, there's our winner!" There wasn't even really any point to having a competition at that point. In my eyes, all it did was do more to DISCOURAGE new talent rather than encourage it...

None of the dancers were "bad" or "low level", really... So I'm not making the argument from a "skill level" point of view (as in, "such-and-such person sucked, and they STILL advanced!...") You could definitely argue that those folks deserved to be there... but... I dunno...

It was just... soooooo... damn... PREDICTABLE. And I honestly felt like some people got robbed, most notably Tsuto (Shuffle crew, Tokyo). He ripped his second prelim and then-nothing!

Also, a lot of the decisions seemed to be based on a "who can look the most like an old-school locker?" rather than "who was dancing the best?" The decisions didn't seem to be in line with the "spirit" of locking (as a dance of freedom and creativity) and rather seemed to be more about "going down the check-list for a complete 'locker'..."....

Sorry, I'm kind of rambling, but still, this is sticking in my craw a bit...

peas,

BW

[MrRaNdm]

As much as I love Flo and his funky self, there was ABSOLUTELY NO REASON FOR HIM TO BE IN THAT COMPETITION (well, other than the $1000.00 cash prize...)


BW

its the economy ....FUCKIN ECONOMY FUNSTYLING US!!!

[buddha stretch]

Hey Buddha. Total number of entrants was low this year--maybe about 23-25 max. People who should have advanced (from prelims) that didn't: Tsuyoshi, Akiko, Tsuto and also Nobby from Jam Crew (Osaka). Also, personally, in the showdown between Lil' B (DS players) and Baby L (Lydia from Toronto), I would have picked Lil'B (better energy, better dancing, more entertaining). Also, most people I talked to were feeling that Win should not have advanced over Tiffany, but there was not total agreement on that point from all sides...

However, I think the more disturbing thing was just the "pattern" of people who "made it through". Main problem: the final four was Win (Taiwan), Boog Tom (Korea), Lydia, and FLOMASTER. Given the identities of two of the three judges, there's a huge POLITICAL problem here! Win, Lydia and FLO are all students of Greg AND are pretty close to Loose Caboose (not completely sure about Boog Tom, but he locks a lot like Suga Pop, so basically, he's also Greg's student via proxy...)

It was another text-book case (in my opinion) of judges picking their students/homies to advance.

As much as I love Flo and his funky self, there was ABSOLUTELY NO REASON FOR HIM TO BE IN THAT COMPETITION (well, other than the $1000.00 cash prize...) Seriously: he already has won a HTWWW (either the 1st or 2nd one, I believe) and has JUDGED a HTWWW (last year, along with (surprise!) Loose Caboose and Sundance...) He's already recognized around the world as a dope-ass locker with more than enough skills to pay the bills. Really, as soon as Kaistar told me on Saturday before I got to the jam that Flo was entering, I said to myself, "well, there's our winner!" There wasn't even really any point to having a competition at that point. In my eyes, all it did was do more to DISCOURAGE new talent rather than encourage it...

None of the dancers were "bad" or "low level", really... So I'm not making the argument from a "skill level" point of view (as in, "such-and-such person sucked, and they STILL advanced!...") You could definitely argue that those folks deserved to be there... but... I dunno...

It was just... soooooo... damn... PREDICTABLE. And I honestly felt like some people got robbed, most notably Tsuto (Shuffle crew, Tokyo). He ripped his second prelim and then-nothing!

Also, a lot of the decisions seemed to be based on a "who can look the most like an old-school locker?" rather than "who was dancing the best?" The decisions didn't seem to be in line with the "spirit" of locking (as a dance of freedom and creativity) and rather seemed to be more about "going down the check-list for a complete 'locker'..."....

Sorry, I'm kind of rambling, but still, this is sticking in my craw a bit...

peas,

BW
Thanks for the rundown...i was suprised to see that FLOW was in,being that he judged last year,& i thought he was through with competitions...but..like Random said...who's turning down money these days??STEPYAGAMEUP!

[NRG]

Sorry for asking, but who's the girl on the left? She's great! Did she advance?
Fu9T51eLH1k

[Kaistar]

@Stretch: Honestly this isn't anything new... but I won't speak on what I think of the judging... If you're curious and have some time to kill, the user gogoeri on YouTube has videos of the both 1st round and 2nd round prelims (1st round was basic elim, 2nd was BEST 16). It'd be nice to get some input from you on it.

@BW: at least you made it thru prelims. Second year in a row that I haven't advanced past first round at this event. Back to the drawing board...

BEST 16:

Boogiewalker
Win
Flomaster
Tony Tones
Melody?
Tsuto
Lil'B
Baby L (Lydia)
Nobu
Sasa
Jimini (Tiffany)
Cow-B
Junko
BoogTom aka Tom Campbellock
Tsuyoshi
Rebecca

EDIT--

@NRG: That's Jimini (Tiffany) vs. Win -- very argued battle for a lot of the audience. I personally felt like Tiffany should've advanced.

[DocLock]

WOW!! Don't get me wrong...that clip!! Win was tiiiite! BUT NO DOUBT in my mind, Tiffany won that.

[buddha stretch]

@Stretch: Honestly this isn't anything new... but I won't speak on what I think of the judging... If you're curious and have some time to kill, the user gogoeri on YouTube has videos of the both 1st round and 2nd round prelims (1st round was basic elim, 2nd was BEST 16). It'd be nice to get some input from you on it.

@BW: at least you made it thru prelims. Second year in a row that I haven't advanced past first round at this event. Back to the drawing board...

BEST 16:

Boogiewalker
Win
Flomaster
Tony Tones
Melody?
Tsuto
Lil'B
Baby L (Lydia)
Nobu
Sasa
Jimini (Tiffany)
Cow-B
Junko
BoogTom aka Tom Campbellock
Tsuyoshi
Rebecca

EDIT--

@NRG: That's Jimini (Tiffany) vs. Win -- very argued battle for a lot of the audience. I personally felt like Tiffany should've advanced.
Well..here's my .02 cents..having watched the battle...while i think she was a bit better than WIN,i can see why the judges picked him....She didn't *LOCK* very much...meaning her technique of the actual LOCK...wasn't very good!Her overall dancing,& creativity was much better...but she wasn't as "Clean",as he was...basically the same reason i lost to Lockadelic years ago,as i was told by Sundance...I think she was better also,& would have gone her way...but having spoken,& danced with the elders...i understand the WHY,in their decision...peace

[scramblelock]

Straight up Lydia is my close friend. She learns from a lot of different lockers and to pull the "well shes a student of greg and caboose" card is really inappropriate because she has learned from and is also a student of many other dancers as well: fluky, richie rich, gemini, suga pop, OG skeet, peekaboo, sundance, and even Flo...I can go on.
She has worked really hard in the past few years to get where she is at and from what i saw of some of her battles she ripped it!

"There wasn't even really any point to having a competition at that point. In my eyes, all it did was do more to DISCOURAGE new talent rather than encourage it..."

I would have considered it an honour to have battled flo master and a REAL challenge. Even if I was a new dancer, to be able to battle him would definetely be intimidating but at the same time it would help step up one's game and allow one to learn a lot of new things. Taking the passive approach really wont help elevate the level of dancers.

[MrRaNdm]

somthing hit me about this thread and was decided wither or not i wanted to bring it up,

but my thought was..... so what if Og's enter...........we should be training to beat these guys as well as the new school heads.....so i think saying that just cause a dancer is known and he might have all the money in the world that doesnt mean he cant enter a jam, so we as people that come out to enter a contest should be prepared to go against anyone......just a thought.

[johnny5]

somthing hit me about this thread and was decided wither or not i wanted to bring it up,

but my thought was..... so what if Og's enter...........we should be training to beat these guys as well as the new school heads.....so i think saying that just cause a dancer is known and he might have all the money in the world that doesnt mean he cant enter a jam, so we as people that come out to enter a contest should be prepared to go against anyone......just a thought.
I agree... when OG'S enter comp's it get's me even more hype to battle....... Alot of ppl r jus to pussy to battle n OG.........

JOHNNY5
FUNNY BONES CREW

[Shockwave32]

lol

[MrRaNdm]

I agree... when OG'S enter comp's it get's me even more hype to battle....... Alot of ppl r jus to pussy to battle n OG.........

JOHNNY5
FUNNY BONES CREW

I dont know if it is necessarly that , i think it might be partially them being scarred or it could be just an issue of them feeling like they wont be able to do them or get down like they normally would because maybe there style is not the orginal text book ish like an OG would do,

i think it would be a humbling experience for alot of ppl to battle a guy like flomaster, which should be looked at as a good thing,

no disrespect to the men and women who paved the way for us, this was just a thought.

[DocLock]

MAN I wish I went to this!! BAM BAM was one of the judges? WOW!!! He's too damn nasty! LOVE his locking style so DAMM DAMM much!!

Flomaster is cool people and damn amazing to watch get down! He doesn't intimidate you or keep you from TRYING either!! In fact, he'd be the first to ENCOURAGE people to do their thing! I agree with Scramble, it would definitely be an honor to go up against someone like him. Super powers and all!! haha

As for Baby L (I kept calling her Lady L for some reason LOL!), look at what she's done ---->

http://lockerlegends.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=272

I BOW to you BABY L!!! Keep on doing your thang!!

Lil B did a great job in that one round with her though, and would've given it to him, but she was overall cleaner when I saw the other clips.

I'm so happy with the caliber of locking talent coming out and love it when they are encouraged to BE THEMSELVES not their teachers/mentors/etc.

HAHAHA MikeyP "a few old men!!" LOL!!!! I'm dying on that one!! BUWUWUAAHHAHAAHHA!!! Oh shit my old ass may be having a heart attack from laughing at that too hard!!

[Kaistar]

personally i'd love to dance against flo...

but i think the real question that this topic presents is "how is locking supposed to grow if it's only judged on foundation and not the whole package". and again, from talking to a lot of people, it felt like a majority of the people who continued to advance got through due more to political reasons than their performance on the stage.

personally, i both agreed and disagreed with a lot of the decisions. some of the decisions didn't make sense at all no matter how i tried to think of it, and some of the decisions i didn't agree with but could see where they're coming from with an old school mindset.

[MrRaNdm]

personally i'd love to dance against flo...

but i think the real question that this topic presents is "how is locking supposed to grow if it's only judged on foundation and not the whole package". and again, from talking to a lot of people, it felt like a majority of the people who continued to advance got through due more to political reasons than their performance on the stage.

personally, i both agreed and disagreed with a lot of the decisions. some of the decisions didn't make sense at all no matter how i tried to think of it, and some of the decisions i didn't agree with but could see where they're coming from with an old school mindset.


well said mr kasiter.

[JRockABM]

Flo Master is the truth. He only enters contests to test himself, and set the bar high for the contest. I once saw him enter a battle, win the money, and then give it to the second place person as a gift. He enters for the fun of it, to test himself, and to rep the dance on a very high level.

Flo is not OG.....he has been dancing a long time yes, but really Locking is just one of his styles. He's been locking a less amount of time as Ive been Popping. He was famous for his Freestyle dancing and BBoyin with Rock Steady and Footwork Fanatix.

I think its dope he enters, even though he has already proven himself as a top level locker. Its a gift to us, to see his level in a competitive atmosphere, where you know he is going full out.

just my two cents.

[Boogiewalker]

Straight up Lydia is my close friend. She learns from a lot of different lockers and to pull the "well shes a student of greg and caboose" card is really inappropriate because she has learned from and is also a student of many other dancers as well: fluky, richie rich, gemini, suga pop, OG skeet, peekaboo, sundance, and even Flo...I can go on.
She has worked really hard in the past few years to get where she is at and from what i saw of some of her battles she ripped it!

Yes, it IS unfortunate to say that (that she advanced because of her teachers) because that IS a DIS-SERVICE to all the hardwork she put in to become a better locker. Personally, I think it does suck when that kind of stuff happens. I have seen Lydia lock for at least two years now (every time she comes to LA) and she HAS improved a lot. I'm not DENYING that. My problem is not with HER, nor with the other DANCERS. My problem is with the JUDGING and the mentality of the JUDGES. As I said in my earlier post, it wasn't that someone advanced who just out-right SUCKED; all the dancers that made it to final four were decent/good/excellent dancers. But, there were some VERY surprising decisions made given the ACTUAL performances of the dancers in specific rounds!

For instance: I was not the only person who was quite surprised when she advanced over Lil'B during the tie-breaker. More than one person said she looked tired and was rather repetitive in the TIE-BREAKER round. Whereas Lil'B was pulling lots of stuff off--he had, over-all, a stronger TIE-BREAKER round in terms of his overall dancing. However, Lydia's strength (over Lil'B) is she has cleaner technique. Her "locking" perhaps looks more "authentic" and her angles and body positioning is more natural in the locking aesthetic than is Lil'B's.

But that's exactly what I mean: the locker who was not the BETTER DANCER from the round but who was MORE OF THE TEXT-BOOK EXAMPLE OF A LOCKER advanced. For another clear example, see the clip of Win vs. Tiffany. I felt that Win was stiff, his musicality was eh-, and his dancing was just boring to watch--no where NEAR as good as LAST YEAR when he actually WON HTWWW (wasn't it YOU, Scram, that had to battle him?). Tiff was somewhat repetitive, and Buddha Stretch is right: she's not just "straight locking" (with an Original Style)-- but in terms of what the SPIRIT of the dance is (Locking = Freedom) AND just in terms of pure musicality, creativity, energy AND (I hate to say it, because I hate it when people decide battles based on this) ENTERTAINMENT VALUE, Tiff beat the pants off of Win.

So, why? Why is it that the "text-books" get the nod while the people who actually danced better get shit on? Maybe Tiff should've wore a cumberbund, crossed suspenders and a pizza hat? She was dressed too hip hop and her locking wasn't 1973? I'm trying to point out that it's the judges and the judging mentality that led to those calls, rather than the actual "who threw it down harder on the dance floor."

And I know for a fact that at least one of the judges is/was VERY EASILY SWAYED by who he has been hanging out with recently. I won't name names, but trust me, he shouldn't have been judging.

WHY IS IT THAT POPPING AND BREAKING ARE NOW SPACE-AGE ADVANCED AND LOCKING IS STILL A STONE-AGE DANCE?!?!?!

"There wasn't even really any point to having a competition at that point. In my eyes, all it did was do more to DISCOURAGE new talent rather than encourage it..."

I stand by this: encouragement means coming away from a competition knowing that, indeed, there is HOPE of you coming back someday and actually BESTING the person who just bested you. Based on what I saw of the JUDGING, the only way anyone would have hope of that came not from skill, not from practice, not from foundation, but on some other mystery criteria coming from deep within the psyche of the judges and their relationship to the person dancing on stage. In effect, there WAS no way to hope of getting better because it wasn't actually completely based on pure skill and performance, but on something else. I wonder what it could be?... hmmmmmm....

I would have considered it an honour to have battled flo master and a REAL challenge. Even if I was a new dancer, to be able to battle him would definetely be intimidating but at the same time it would help step up one's game and allow one to learn a lot of new things.

Stack the deck right and the house ALWAYS wins. That's the problem. If you went against Flo in this competition, you could've pulled your underwear off while wearing all your clothes (a la Zoolander) and you still would've lost, no matter what. How does that help one step his or her game up? Learn new things? Like what? That the person needs to buy the locking textbook and take a few pages out before the next competition? Wait, there's a locking textbook? Why wasn't I told?!

A real challenge is one where there could possibly be a different outcome than the one that actually happens due to other factors, including primarily human effort. Me battling Yumeki at Homeland = a real challenge. This competition was not the best example of a real challenge.

Taking the passive approach really wont help elevate the level of dancers.

Nor will taking the morally dubious route (competing when one SHOULDN'T). Nor will unfair judging. I think these things are much more prevalent problems in the dance community than the "passive approach".

Oh, and just for the record:

I'm NOT bitching about my own performance at this competition. Personally, I do not feel that I was cheated or the victim of any bad or biased decisions. I know I could've done waaaaaaaaaay better and I was actually surprised that I made it past pre-lims (my pre-lim round sucked...) If anything, I'm motivated to get better just to show that I can deserve to be up there, whether I actually get chosen by the judges or not.

Lastly: Kaistar ripped it. No matter what people say, Kaistar is a nasty locker. His prelim round from Summer Funk is absolute proof (I don't know if it's up or not, but if it is, watch it...)

[Kaistar]

lol what?

appreciate the props but i definitely dont think i do anything well in contests. circles be more my thing. thanks for the props tho! lol

[Boogiewalker]

Sorry for asking, but who's the girl on the left? She's great! Did she advance?
Fu9T51eLH1k

She's Tiffany, aka Jimini (Jim-in-knee) from Syrenz Crew.

peas,

BW